[107 Senate Committee Prints]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:83871.wais]
S. Prt. 107-84
EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE
ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
=======================================================================
VOLUME 3
__________
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
1953
MADE PUBLIC JANUARY 2003
Printed for the use of the Committee on Governmental Affairs
________
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
107th Congress, Second Session
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii TED STEVENS, Alaska
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Staff Director and Counsel
Richard A. Hertling, Minority Staff Director
Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Chairman
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii, SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois TED STEVENS, Alaska
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Elise J. Bean, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Kim Corthell, Minority Staff Director
Mary D. Robertson, Chief Clerk
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
83rd Congress, First Session
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas \1\
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington \1\
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri \1\
Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
Ruth Young Watt, Chief Clerk
assistant counsels
Robert F. Kennedy Donald A. Surine
Thomas W. La Venia Jerome S. Adlerman
Donald F. O'Donnell C. George Anastos
Daniel G. Buckley
investigators
Robert J. McElroy
Herbert S. Hawkins James N. Juliana
G. David Schine, Chief Consultant
Karl H. W. Baarslag, Director of Research
Carmine S. Bellino, Consulting Accountant
La Vern J. Duffy, Staff Assistant
----------
\1\ The Democratic members were absent from the subcommittee from
July 10, 1953 to January 25, 1954.
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Volume 3
Security--United Nations, September 14........................... 1807
Testimony of Julius Reiss; and Florence Englander.
Security--United Nations, September 15........................... 1833
Testimony of Paul Crouch; Dimitri Varley; Abraham Unger; and
Alice Ehrenfeld.
Security--United Nations, September 16........................... 1877
Testimony of Frank Cerny; and Helen Matousek.
Security--United Nations, September 17........................... 1889
Testimony of Abraham Unger; Vachel Lofek; and David M.
Freedman.
Communist Infiltration in the Army, September 21................. 1899
Testimony of Igor Bogolepov; Vladimir Petrov; Gen. Richard C.
Partridge; and Samuel McKee.
Communist Infiltration in the Army, September 23................. 1913
Testimony of Louis Budenz; Harriett Moore Gelfan; and Corliss
Lamont.
Korean War Atrocities, October 6................................. 1923
Testimony of Edward J. Lyons, Jr.; Lt. Col. Lee H. Kostora;
Maj. James Kelleher; Lt. Col. J. W. Whitehorne, III; Gen.
Fenn; and John Adams.
Korean War Atrocities, October 31................................ 1943
Korean War Atrocities, November 30............................... 1965
Testimony of 1st Lt. Henry J. McNichols, Jr.; Sgt. Barry F.
Rhoden; Capt. Linton J. Buttrey; Sgt. Carey H. Weinel; Col.
James M. Hanley; Pfc. John E. Martin; Capt. Alexander G.
Makarounis.
Korean War Atrocities, December 1................................ 2043
Testimony of Lt. Col. John W. Gorn; Lt. Col. James T. Rogers;
Cpl. Lloyd D. Kreider; Sgt. Robert L. Sharps; William L.
Milano; Sgt. Wendell Treffery; Sgt. George J. Matta; Cpl.
Willie L. Daniels; Sgt. John L. Watters, Jr.; Sgt. Orville
R. Mullins; and Donald R. Brown.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 8........... 2119
Statements of Paul Siegel; Jerome Corwin; Allen J.
Lovenstein; Edward J. Fister; William P. Goldberg; and
Jerome Rothstein.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 9........... 2201
Statements of Alan Sterling Gross; Dr. Fred B. Daniels;
Bernard Lipel; James Evers; Sol Bremmer; Murray Miller;
Sherwood Leeds; Paul M. Leeds.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 12.......... 2275
Statements of Louis Volp; William Patrick Lonnie; Henry F.
Burkhard; Marcel Ullmann; and Herbert F. Hecker.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 12.......... 2303
Testimony of Marcel Ullmann; Morris Keiser; Seymour
Rabinowitz; Rudolph C. Riehs; and Carl Greenblum.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 13.......... 2329
Testimony of Joseph Levitsky; William Ludwig Ullman; Bernard
Martin; Louis Kaplan; Harry Donohue; Jack Frolow; Bernard
Lewis; and Craig Crenshaw.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 14.......... 2389
Testimony of Harold Ducore; Aaron H. Coleman; Samuel
Pomerentz; and Haym G. Yamins.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 14.......... 2457
Testimony of Harold Ducore; Jack Okun; and Maj. Gen. Kirke B.
Lawton.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 15.......... 2487
Testimony of Vivian Glassman Pataki; Eleanor Glassman Hutner;
Samuel I. Greenman; Ira J. Katchen; Max Elitcher; Eugene E.
Hutner; Col. John V. Mills; Maj. James J. Gallagher; Marcel
Ullmann; Benjamin Zuckerman; and Benjamin Bookbinder.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 16.......... 2563
Testimony of Maj. Gen. Kirke Lawton; Maj. Gen George I. Back;
Maj. Jenista; Col. Ferry; John Pernice; Karl Gerhard; Carl
Greenblum; Markus Epstein; and Leo M. Miller.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 17.......... 2625
Testimony of Alfred C. Walker; Joseph Levitsky; and Louis
Antell.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 22.......... 2649
Testimony of Fred Joseph Kitty; Jack Okun; Aaron Coleman; and
Barry S. Bernstein.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 22.......... 2697
Testimony of Benjamin Wolman, Harvey Sachs, Leonard E. Mins,
and Sylvia Berke.
SECURITY--UNITED NATIONS
[Editor's note.--With the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee already conducting an investigation of American
Communist infiltration of the United Nations, the Permanent
Subcommittee on Investigations confined its inquiry to ``an
employee of the United Nations not attached to that part of the
United Nations scrutinized by the Internal Security
Subcommittee.'' Julius Reiss (1907-1979) was an American
employed by the Polish Delegation to the United Nations. He had
also been an instructor for the U.S. Army during the Second
World War. In both this executive session and in a public
session on September 17, 1953, Reiss declined to answer
questions relating to Communist party membership and
activities. Florence Englander (1907-1981), who also testified
on September 14, did not testify in public.]
----------
MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The subcommittee met at 10:40 a.m., in room 128 of the
United States Court House, Foley Square, Senator Joseph R.
McCarthy, presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Francis P. Carr, executive director; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; G. David Schine, chief consultant; Baline
Sloan, member, Legal Department, U.N.
The Chairman. Mr. Remes, will you stand and be sworn.
Mr. Reiss. My name is Reiss.
The Chairman. In this matter now in hearing before the
committee, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Reiss. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JULIUS REISS (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, ROYAL W.
FRANCE)
Mr. Cohn. Can we get the name of counsel for the record.
Mr. France. Royal W. France, 104 East 40th Street.
Mr. Reiss. Excuse me, sir. I didn't quite get the name you
used when you asked me.
The Chairman. You give us your name, will you?
Mr. Reiss. Julius Reiss.
Mr. Cohn. What is your address, sir?
Mr. Reiss. 741 Westminister Road, Brooklyn, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Reiss. At the Polish Delegation to the United Nations.
Mr. Cohn. What is that address?
Mr. Reiss. 151 East 62 Street.
The Chairman. I wonder if you would try and speak louder,
please.
Mr. Reiss. 161 East 62 Street. New York City.
Mr. Cohn. And what is the telephone up there?
Well, that is all right. Let me ask you this, sir. For how
long a period of time have you been employed at the Polish
Delegation to the United Nations?
Mr. Reiss. Approximately three years.
Mr. Cohn. Approximately three years?
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, you went there in 1950, is that
right?
Mr. Reiss. At the end of 1950 sometime.
Mr. Cohn. End of ?
Mr. Reiss. Sometime.
Mr. Cohn. Will you just tell us generally what you do
there?
Mr. Reiss. I am a documentation clerk.
Mr. Cohn. What does that mean?
Mr. Reiss. I handle United Nations documents, file them. I
make abstracts, digests of them. I handle press end periodicals
and books and do research in the press, periodicals and books.
Mr. Cohn. Did you generally work along those lines?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is your salary paid by the Polish Delegation?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What is your salary?
Mr. Reiss. It is about $3900 a year. I think about $325 a
month.
Mr. Cohn. Is that net of taxes or----
Mr. Reiss. That is before taxes.
Mr. Cohn. What do you do, pay your own income tax?
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Is that reimbursed to you in any way by----
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, you are paid a straight salary?
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. You are. Are you paid in United States currency?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What did you do immediately prior to going with
the Polish Delegation?
Mr. Reiss. Directly prior to that?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Reiss. I was out of work.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time? Just
approximately?
Mr. Reiss. May I ask my counsel a question?
Mr. Cohn. Sure, you can ask your counsel anything you want.
Mr. Reiss. I think it may have been about two months or so.
Two or more, I am not sure.
Mr. Cohn. Directly prior to that, what did you do?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. On the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate
you, on the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Reiss. On the grounds the answer may tend to
incriminate me, on the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time will you claim a
privilege as to your employment? In other words, we are back to
two months prior to the time you went with the Polish
Delegation.
You can consult with counsel if you want. I don't want to
go back month after month.
Mr. Reiss. I think back to about 1935.
Mr. Cohn. Back to 1935?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever worked for the United States
government?
Mr. Reiss. I was in the army.
Mr. Cohn. As a soldier?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. During what years?
Mr. Reiss. 1942 to 1945.
Mr. Cohn. Did you serve in this country and overseas?
Mr. Reiss. Just in this country.
Mr. Cohn. Just in this country. Where were you stationed?
Mr. Reiss. I was stationed in Aberdeen, Maryland.
Mr. Cohn. Aberdeen, Maryland?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Aberdeen Proving Ground?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir. It had nothing to do with it.
Mr. Cohn. What was the particular assignment in the army
that you had?
Mr. Reiss. I was--I taught pedagogy.
Mr. Cohn. You taught pedagogy in the army?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. What the hell is that?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir. Would you expand on that just for a
little bit?
Mr. Reiss. Yes. You have a lot of men who went through
cadre school and who you had to teach how to repair machine
guns and ammunition clerical work and so forth. They had to
teach. Well, I taught these men the technique of teaching.
Nothing to do with the material.
Mr. Cohn. I understand.
Mr. Reiss. Just the pure technique.
Mr. Cohn. All right, now, are you today a member of the
Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Have you--in 1950, were you secretary of the
National Youth Commission of the Communist party of the United
States?
Mr. Reiss. May I consult with my counsel?
I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been known by the name of Julius
Remes?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been assistant editor of the
Political Affairs Monthly, theoretical publication of the
Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer, on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr Cohn. Have you been a paid functionary of the Communist
party of the United States?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Have you served on the enlarged National
Committee of the Communist party of the United States?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Do you contribute any of the salary that you
receive now to the Communist party?
You can consult with counsel any time you want.
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Pardon me?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You do not?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you contribute any money to the Communist
party of the United States?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You do not. Did you ever?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Did you last year?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever taught at the Jefferson School?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Now, were you in 1937 and 1938 an organizer for
the Communist party in Michigan and Louisiana?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Is it a fact that when you went to--is it not a
fact that when you joined the Polish Delegation to the United
Nations, became associated with it, you were instructed by the
Communist party not to continue in open association with the
party but to go in the underground?
Do you want to read that back, if the witness has
difficulty understanding the question?
[Question read.]
Mr. Cohn. Again, I say--I see you hesitate--you can consult
with counsel any time you want.
Mr. Schine. Proceed.
Mr. Reiss. I am just thinking.
Mr. Cohn. What?
Mr. Reiss. Thinking.
Mr. Cohn. Are you prepared to answer?
Mr. Reiss. I am just thinking for a minute.
Mr. Cohn. You want to think for a minute?
Mr. Reiss. Just for a minute.
Mr. Cohn. Oh, sure. Take all the time you want.
Mr. Reiss. Could I smoke?
Mr. Cohn. Oh, certainly.
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Pardon me?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. That is not true. Do you know a man by the name
of Andy Remes?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. He is your brother, is he not?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Can you tell us whether or not he is in the
Communist party underground?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Can you state where he is today?
The Chairman. May I interrupt, Mr. Counsel? I do not
believe he can refuse to answer as to personal relationship,
whether he is his brother or not.
Mr. Cohn. All right.
Mr. Reiss. I can't refuse?
The Chairman. Uh-huh.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any brothers?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
The Chairman. Mr. Counsel, I think that the chair will
order the witness to answer. There can be nothing incriminating
about the fact he has or has not brothers.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever worked for----
The Chairman. He was ordered to answer the question.
Mr. Cohn. I am sorry. You were directed to answer the
question as to whether or not you have any brothers.
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. You do have brothers. How many?
Mr. Reiss. Living?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Reiss. Two.
Mr. Cohn. And what are their first names?
Yes, sir?
Mr. Reiss. I was asked the question before and I refused to
answer.
The Chairman. I understand the witness refuses to answer as
to the names of his brothers.
Mr. Reiss. Sir----
The Chairman. I think in view of the fact----
Mr. Reiss. No, sir, I am just thinking.
Mr. Cohn. He is just hesitating.
The Chairman. Oh.
Mr. Cohn. Senator McCarthy, this is Mr. Sloan.
The Chairman. I am glad to know you, Mr. Sloan.
Mr. Sloan. How do you do, sir. I am just here as an
observer.
The Chairman. I understand. You are not responsible for
anything we do here.
Mr. Reiss. Well, I have one brother whom I haven't seen for
many years.
Mr. Cohn. What is his first name?
Mr. Reiss. Many years. Solomon Reiss.
Mr. Cohn. What about the other brother? What is his name?
And Solomon, what is his last name?
Mr. Reiss. Reiss.
Mr. Cohn. Reiss, yes. And what is your other brother's
first name, Mr. Reiss? Sir?
Mr. Reiss. I have a--yes.
Mr. Cohn. What is his first name?
Mr. Reiss. Andrew Remes.
Mr. Cohn. Andrew Remes?
Mr. Reiss. His legal name.
Mr. Cohn. His legal name?
Mr. Reiss. His legal name as far as I know.
Mr. Cohn. Where is your brother?
Mr. Reiss. May I just--Mr.----
Mr. Cohn. Sure.
Mr. Reiss. On purely--well, I hesitated speaking--may I say
this and then can I stop, and then I will repeat the same thing
word for word to----
Mr. Cohn. You want to say something off the record?
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Go ahead.
[Discussion off the record.]
The Chairman. Have the record show the witness, on his own
request, was allowed to give the committee some information off
the record. He desires not to have it on the record. It will
not be on the record in this case; but this will be the only
case in which we will go off the record.
Mr. Reiss. Thank you very much.
Mr. Cohn. Where is your brother, Andrew Remes, now?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. When did you see him last?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Is it not a fact he is a member of the Communist
underground and out of circulation at the moment?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds stated.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you draw any pay from the Communist party at
this time?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any identification entitling you to
admission to the United Nations zone and grounds and building?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir. I have an identification card.
Mr. Cohn. Could we examine that, please?
Mr. Reiss. I do not have it with me.
Mr. Cohn. You haven't got it with you?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do your duties ever take you over to the United
Nations building?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, of course.
Mr. Cohn. About how frequently?
Mr. Reiss. There is no regularity involved. I may go down
three times in one week. I think in the last three months I
have been down there--I really don't know--maybe once or twice.
Mr. Cohn. It hasn't been in session a good deal of the
time.
Mr. Reiss. But I don't go down there just during sessions.
Mr. Cohn. When you go down there, do you confer with
various people?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You do. Now, do you know any member--do you know
any persons employed by the secretariat of the United Nations?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any American citizens employed by the
secretariat?
Mr. Reiss. I know some people there.
Mr. Cohn. Could you name the ones you know?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any Americans employed by the United
Nations secretariat who are members of the Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
The Chairman. May I just ask a couple of questions?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you believe that the Communist party is
dedicated to the overthrow of this government by force and
violence?
Mr. Reiss. I do not.
The Chairman. You do?
Mr. Reiss. I do not.
The Chairman. You do not. Let me ask you the question again
in a slightly different form. Do you believe it is dedicated--
strike that.
Do you believe the Communist party is dedicated to the
overthrow of this government by force and violence if a
Communist government cannot be imposed on this nation by
peaceful means?
Mr. Reiss. Will you repeat that, please?
Mr. Cohn. Would you read it?
[Question read.]
Mr. Reiss. Seems to me that the answer to that was embraced
in the question that I just answered.
The Chairman. I am going to ask you to answer this
question. It is in slightly different form.
Mr. Reiss. Uh-huh!
Mr. France. Do you understand the question?
Mr. Reiss. It is a question of some difficulty for me to
grasp. I am not quite sure.
Mr. France. I wonder if the----
Mr. Cohn. I don't agree with that. You have taught at the
Workers School, haven't you?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. You have taught courses in Marxism and Leninism.
You can answer the question.
The Chairman. It is a very simple question. You can take
all the time you want, but it is a question I am going to order
you to answer.
Mr. France. Would you like the question repeated?
Mr. Reiss. No.
The Chairman. If you want the question read again, you may
have it read to you.
Mr. Reiss. Would you read the question to me?
[Question read.]
Mr. Cohn. Is that so difficult?
The Chairman. I will be back in a minute. Let the witness
think it over, and I will be back.
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sir.
[Whereupon, the chairman withdrew from the hearing room.]
Mr. Cohn. Do you want to answer?
Mr. Reiss. I will, yes.
Mr. Cohn. You are still meditating?
Mr. Reiss. Yes. Not as easy as it sounds. Do you mean----
[Whereupon, the chairman returned to the hearing room.]
Mr. Cohn. He is still thinking. Still thinking of the
answer to that question. Huh.
Mr. Reiss. You see, I am trying to envision the possible
circumstances involved in this question.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you this preliminary question.
The Chairman. I think he should answer now.
Mr. Cohn. I want to know how much they paid you at the
Workers School to teach Marxism and Leninism.
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated. I have been trying to envision the possible
circumstances under which that question would arise and----
The Chairman. We will give you until 2:30 this afternoon
and you think it over and----
Mr. Reiss. I can answer.
Mr. Cohn. We have other witnesses and can't sit here all
day for you to think it out.
Mr. Reiss. I think my attorney won't be here, and I would
like to answer the question now.
Mr. Cohn. We will have to have you back this afternoon
anyway.
The Chairman. Okay. If he wants to answer now----
Mr. Reiss. If I have to be back this afternoon, I will wait
until this afternoon.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you this question. Who obtained your
job for you at the Polish Delegation to the United Nations?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Was that obtained for you through the
intercession of the American Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was it obtained by you--for you through the
intercession of any functionary of the American Communist
party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. Was there anything illegal in connection with
your obtaining that job, as far as you know?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
The Chairman. Was--to your knowledge, did you do anything
in connection with your obtaining that job that was either
directly or indirectly in violation of the laws of the United
States?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
The Chairman. You are then ordered to answer the question
propounded by counsel. If there was nothing illegal in
connection with your getting the job, if you are guilty of no
illegal activities in connection with your getting the job, you
are not entitled to the privilege under the Fifth Amendment, so
you answer the question.
You can discuss the matter with counsel at any time you
care to, Mr.----
Mr. Cohn. Sir?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Cohn. Now.
The Chairman. Have the record show--I believe it is clear,
and if I am incorrect in this, counsel, you correct me. I
believe the record now shows the witness has stated that he is
aware of nothing illegal in connection with his obtaining the
job, that he feels he does not know of any law of the United
States which he violated either directly or indirectly in
obtaining the job. Have the record show that after that
appeared I turned and ordered the witness to answer; that the
witness consulted with counsel and has again refused to answer
the question.
We will let you go until 2:30 this afternoon. We had hoped
to finish up with your testimony this morning, but it has taken
so much time to get answers to very, very simple questions from
you that we will have to let you go now and take some of the
other witnesses whom we promised to handle this morning.
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. 2:30 this afternoon, and in case we are late
in that, we have other matters which we have to take care of,
you will be instructed to wait until we get to you.
Mr. Cohn. I would like to have you answer one last
question. I don't know whether I asked it before or not. Did
you work for Abraham Unger in 1950?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Did you--were you engaged in any activities
connected with the defense of the indicted Communist leaders?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Cohn. Were you paid money for those activities by the
Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Cohn. Okay.
Mr. France. It appears that all these refusals are based on
the same reason as before.
Mr. Cohn. The answers--the ground the answers might tend to
incriminate him.
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
The Chairman. Yes. I think, just off the record----
[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. Reiss. I should like to state that all my refusals have
been on the basis of my privilege under the Fifth Amendment to
the Constitution.
[Witness excused.]
TESTIMONY OF FLORENCE ENGLANDER
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand.
This matter now in hearing before the committee, do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Miss Englander. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Could we have your full name?
Miss Englander. Florence Englander.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Miss Englander. At the United Nations.
Mr. Cohn. In what capacity?
Miss Englander. My title is social affairs officer.
Mr. Cohn. Social affairs officer. And for how long a period
of time have you been employed at the United Nations?
Miss Englander. Exactly seven years.
Mr. Cohn. Seven years?
Miss Englander. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What is your salary?
Miss Englander. I think it is $6200. I am not exactly sure.
Mr. Cohn. Is that net of taxes?
Miss Englander. That is my gross salary.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
Miss Englander. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. During what years?
Miss Englander. I think 1935 to 1940.
Mr. Cohn. 1935 to 1940?
Miss Englander. Yes. The----
Mr. Cohn. Did you have any associations with the Communist
party after 1940?
Miss Englander. None at all.
Mr. Cohn. None whatsoever?
Miss Englander. None whatsoever.
Mr. Cohn. Have you had any association with any Communists
since 1940?
Miss Englander. On one occasion.
Mr. Cohn. What was the name of that Communist?
Miss Englander. Louise Schatz.
Mr COHN. Will you spell that?
Miss Englander. S-c-h-a-t-z.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Miss Englander. In 1940. Well, she mentioned to me in
1947----
Mr. Cohn. What was the nature of your association with her?
Miss Englander. Well, I didn't know at the time, you see,
we shared an apartment together, and one day she just felt
inclined to tell me this.
Mr. Cohn. With that one exception, have there been any
other Communists with whom you have been associated?
The Chairman. May I interrupt off the record?
[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. Cohn. Will you be back at 3:30?
Miss Englander. Here?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
[Witness excused.]
[Whereupon, at 11:15 a.m. a recess was taken until 2:30
p.m.]
afternoon session
[Whereupon, at 3:25 p.m. this day, the hearing was resumed
pursuant to the taking of the recess.]
TESTIMONY OF JULIUS REISS (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, ROYAL W.
FRANCE) (RESUMED)
Mr. Reiss. Mr. Senator, I would like to make a statement.
The Chairman. Will you please try to speak louder?
Mr. Reiss. I would like to make a statement on one of the
questions I answered this morning.
The Chairman. You may.
Mr. Reiss. I would like that answer, that I did not know
anything illegal about my appointment--I wish to make it clear
that I know of nothing illegal about an American citizen
obtaining a position with any delegation to the United Nations
and in so stating, I did not state that discussions of any
associations which may have led to my being recommended to the
Polish Delegation might not tend to incriminate me, and that
was the basis for my refusing to answer, as to who recommended
me.
The Chairman. I don't understand. I frankly don't
understand what you said at all.
Mr. Reiss. I can just repeat it.
The Chairman. Read it a little louder.
Mr. Cohn. Let's see if I can explain it off the record.
The Chairman. Let's take it on the record. Everything
should be on the record.
Mr. Cohn. All right.
Is this what you are trying to say, that you did state
there was nothing illegal about your obtaining employment, the
manner in which you obtained it, or about your continuing the
employment, you said in your knowledge, you had no knowledge
about anything illegal; but you went on and claimed a Fifth
Amendment privilege on whether or not your job was obtained for
you by a top functionary of the American Communist party. You
are now saying your claiming of the privilege as to which
individual got the job for you and what discussion preceded
getting the job was not meant in any way to indicate there was
anything illegal about your obtaining the job. You decline to
answer who got the job for you because of the possibility of
Communist associations tending to incriminate you; is that
substantially accurate?
You may confer with counsel.
Mr. France. May I make a statement?
The position that the witness takes is, as I understand it,
that in stating that he knew nothing illegal about his being
appointed as an employee of the Polish Delegation, he did not
state that there might not have been recommendations made which
would involve associations which might tend to incriminate him
and, therefore, when the question came about the
recommendations, he felt that that was a different question.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this question: Do you know of
anything illegal on your part in connection with your getting
this job--any illegal activities on your part, not on the part
of someone else?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the ground of the Fifth
Amendment.
The Chairman. Do you feel that if you told the truth, that
answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Reiss. I think that in the light of the----
The Chairman. Will you try to speak louder? I can't----
Mr. Reiss. Yes, in the light of the situation and the
connotations thereof, I would have to refuse to answer on the
ground that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. The question is, are you refusing because you
think a truthful answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Reiss. No. I would like to repeat the answer that in
the light of the present general political situation I feel
that any answer that I might give might tend to incriminate or
degrade me.
The Chairman. You will not be allowed the privilege under
those circumstances. If you say any answer, that means you
commit perjury. You know that. The question is: Do you think
that a truthful answer to the question would tend to
incriminate you?
Mr. Reiss. I say that in the answer--that I included in the
answer the idea of the truth of the answer.
The Chairman. I can't hear.
Mr. Reiss. I say that I included the idea of the truthful
answer.
The Chairman. I am asking the question: Do you feel that a
truthful answer would tend to incriminate you? The answer is
yes or no.
Mr. Reiss. I think that as I said before, that the answer
might tend to incriminate me under present circumstances.
The Chairman. A truthful answer.
Mr. Reiss. That a truthful answer might tend to incriminate
me under the present circumstances.
The Chairman. Then you are entitled to the privilege.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Reiss, may I ask you this?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You are employed by the----
The Chairman. Can I ask one question?
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
The Chairman. What was your baptismal name?
Mr. Reiss. Julius Reiss.
The Chairman. Julius Reiss?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I believe you refused to answer this
question, I am not sure. Did you later change your name to Joel
Remes?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. Has Julius Reiss always been your legal name?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Pardon me.
Mr. Cohn. Joel Remes was and is your Communist party name,
is it not?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Now, sir, you work for the Polish Delegation.
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. The Polish government is of course under
Communist domination today; is that correct? That is a
historical fact, is it not?
Mr. Reiss. I would like to ask a question: what you mean by
Communist?
Mr. Cohn. What do you think?
Mr. Reiss. As far as I know, there is a legally elected
government.
Mr. Cohn. I see.
Mr. Reiss. In which members of the Communist party
represent, and I think also other parties. I can't remember the
names exactly, but there are other parties.
Mr. Cohn. I see.
The Chairman. I just recall one of the reasons we gave this
morning for the recess was to let him consider his answer to
the question which had been propounded this morning. Have you
arrived at an answer to that yet?
Mr. Reiss. Could you repeat that?
Mr. France. Wants to know whether you are ready to answer.
The Chairman. The question was--I will re-ask the question.
Do you believe that the Communist party advocates the overthrow
of this government by force and violence if a Communist form of
government cannot be imposed upon this nation by peaceful
means?
Mr. Reiss. I said I do not feel that that question can be
answered yes or no. To discuss it would lead me into a long
discussion of Communist theory, which might involve questions
as to the basis of my knowledge or beliefs, and that might tend
to incriminate me. I also feel that that question that you ask
is outside the scope of the congressional committee, and in my
refusal to answer that question and other refusals, I invoke
the protection of the First and Fifth Amendments.
The Chairman. In other words, you refuse to answer on the
grounds that a truthful answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You are entitled to the privilege.
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Now, let me ask you this, Mr. Reiss: In your opinion, who
was responsible--who was the aggressor in the Korean War?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. I see. If you were called upon--If you had been
called upon during the Korean War to fight in opposition to the
Communist forces, would you have done so?
You can consult with counsel.
Mr. Reiss. I am an American citizen. I did serve before and
I think if called upon, I will naturally serve.
Mr. Cohn. Including bearing arms against the Communists?
Mr. Reiss. That would have been my--necessary under the
Constitution of the United States.
The Chairman. If you could try to speak up.
Mr. Reiss. I am sorry, sir.
The Chairman. I can't hear you.
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir. As I did previously in the other war,
I would have done it here.
The Chairman. In other words--if I may, counsel--do I
understand then that if today or tomorrow we get into a war
with Communist Russia and you were called upon to bear arms
against Communist Russia and fight for the United States, your
testimony is that you would do that?
Mr. Reiss. I am sorry, sir. Could you repeat that question
once more?
Mr. Cohn. Would you read the question?
[Question read.]
The Chairman. Note for the record that the witness consults
with counsel.
Mr. Reiss. Senator, it seems to me that involves a great
many hypothetical questions.
The Chairman. Uh-huh!
Mr. Reiss. But I think it is clear that since I am an
American citizen subject to the laws of the United States, if I
were called into the army of the United States and to serve in
it, I would have to do so.
The Chairman. Would you be willing to do so if we were
fighting Communist Russia?
Mr. Reiss. On the question, I am not sure I know what you
mean by the word ``willing.''
The Chairman. Would you refuse to do so?
Mr. Reiss. I have already stated if I were called upon to
enter the United States Army, I would do so.
The Chairman. Even if we were fighting Communist Russia?
Mr. Reiss. I believe that that, again I believe that
involves so many hypothetical questions as to a possible war
between the United States and Russia, a war which I certainly
do not hope will take place and which I personally feel
peaceful desires both of the United--American people and the
Russian people will prevent from coming into existence because
It would be certainly a disaster for the entire world. But I
think it is clear that if in the event of such a war as in the
case of a war against Germany, when I was drafted into the
army, I entered into the army and performed my duties. If I
were drafted into the army, I would perform my duties there.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe in our form of government or do
you believe in communism?
Mr. Reiss. Seems to me that--is that one or two questions?
Mr. Cohn. Let's break it down. Do you believe in communism?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the basis of the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe in our form of government? Do you
believe in a capitalistic democracy?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the basis of the First and
Fifth Amendments.
Mr. Cohn. I see. Have you--when were you last in
consultation with any functionaries of the Communist party of
the United States?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated--on the ground of the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Were you in consultation within the last six
weeks with any functionaries of the Communist party of the
United States concerning the forthcoming meetings of the United
Nations General Assembly?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Very specifically, within the last two weeks were
you in consultation with any functionaries of the Communist
party of the United States concerning the General Assembly of
the United Nations which was to commence this month?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Specifically, were you in consultation with any
functionaries of the American Communist party concerning the
formulation of policy concerning an issue which was to arise in
the General Assembly of the United Nations?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. I will ask the same question specifying were you
in consultation with functionaries of the American Communist
party concerning formulation of policy on the handling of the
Korean peace issue at the meeting of the General Assembly?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Now, have you ever been in Poland, by the way?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been abroad?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You have not. Now, let me ask you this question:
Do you know----
Mr. Reiss. May I interrupt?
Mr. Cohn. Yes, sure.
Mr. Reiss. When you say abroad, do you mean Canada, for
example?
Mr. Cohn. Any place outside the Continental United States.
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir. I was. I was in about 1925 or 1926. I
went to Canada.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any connection with the United
States Treasury Department in any way?
Mr. Reiss. United States Treasury Department? So far as I
know, no.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know William Z. Foster, national chairman
of the Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Have you held any position in the United States
government in any agency other than your army service at any
time?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Whether or not you ever worked for any agency of
the United States government? I don't understand that, you
refuse to answer that.
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What agency?
Mr. Reiss. I was on relief for WPA.
Mr. Cohn. You were on relief, drawing relief funds?
Mr. Reiss. Of WPA.
Mr. Cohn. Were you an employee?
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. And what--during what years?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. When you were with the WPA, were you a member of
the Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
The Chairman. Do I understand the witness refuses to tell
what years he worked for the WPA?
Mr. Cohn. Apparently.
The Chairman. Are you refusing to tell us what years you
worked for the WPA?
Mr. Reiss. That was the answer.
The Chairman. You will be ordered to answer that question.
I will be glad to hear, if your counsel thinks you are entitled
to the privilege.
Mr. France. I understand the position the witness has
stated, that he feels that to answer about his employment from
the years--what was it? From 1936 on--might tend to incriminate
him.
Mr. Reiss. 1934.
Mr. France. And that any employment that he had during that
period might lead to questions about other matters or
associations which might tend to incriminate him even though
the mere fact of being on relief with WPA itself would not tend
to do. That is what I understand to be his position.
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
The Chairman. I may say that while the Fifth Amendment, Mr.
Counsel, is very broad and very liberally interpreted, it is
the position of the chair that he is not entitled to refuse to
tell us what dates he worked for the government.
If we start questioning him about any activities which
might be considered illegal, he could refuse to answer, but as
far as the dates and the agency, I believe he would not be
entitled to the Fifth Amendment privilege. It is all a matter
of record. I am going to order him to answer the question.
I may say for counsel's benefit it will lead to other
questions as to what other agencies of the government he worked
for.
Mr. Reiss. Well, sir, I can't remember the exact dates. It
was sometime--sometime in 1935 and 1936, and as far as I can
recollect, it was sometime in 1939 and 1940.
The Chairman. In other words, from 1935 or 1936 until 1939
or 1940.
Mr. Reiss. No, no. It was during 1935 and 1936 and during
1939 and 1940.
The Chairman. In other words, two periods of time?
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
The Chairman. Did you work for any other government agency?
Mr. Reiss. Outside of the army, let's see. No, sir. Except
the army, of course.
The Chairman. You were drafted into the army. You spent how
many years in the army?
Mr. Reiss. From May 1942 to June--to September of 1945.
The Chairman. And you were teaching the technique of
teaching at that time?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever attempt to indoctrinate your
students with the philosophy of communism?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir. That was a purely technical subject,
and I taught nothing except the subject itself.
The Chairman. Did you ever solicit any of your students to
join the Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
The Chairman. We are not discussing your testimony.
Mr. Reiss. This isn't that funny.
Mr. Cohn. No. It certainly isn't.
I had asked you originally about William Z. Foster. You
claimed the privilege.
The Chairman Can I ask one more question?
Mr. Cohn. Sure.
The Chairman. At the time you were teaching the technique
of teaching in the army, did you attend Communist party
meetings?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you during that period of time attend any
Communist party meetings which were attended by your students
also?
Mr. Reiss. I think that since I have already invoked the
privilege on the question of whether or not I attended any
other--any Communist meetings, I would have to invoke it here,
too.
The Chairman. In other words, you feel if you told us the
truth as to whether you attended Communist party meetings which
were attended by your students while you were teaching in the
army, that truthful answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Reiss. I think I would like to repeat just what I said
a moment ago, that since I have already invoked the Fifth
Amendment in regard to the question of whether or not I
attended any Communist meetings during that period, I would
have to invoke it also on this same question.
The Chairman. May I say you can only invoke it if you think
a truthful answer would tend to incriminate you. This is an
entirely different question. The other question is whether or
not you attended Communist meetings. You refused to answer
that. The question is now, did you attend Communist meetings in
that period of time which were also attended by your students?
If you did not attend such meetings, of course, the answer
could not incriminate you.
If you did attend, such meetings, then it is possible that
your answer might tend to incriminate you. So when you say you
are invoking the privilege because you refused to answer a
previous question, that is not sufficient ground. The only
ground upon which you can invoke it is if you feel a truthful
answer might tend to incriminate you. If you feel that a
truthful answer might tend to incriminate you, you can refuse
to answer.
So the pending question is: Do you feel that a truthful
answer to that question might tend to incriminate you?
May I say for counsel's benefit that the chair takes the
position that you are not entitled to the privilege if you feel
that perjury might incriminate you; that you are only entitled
to the privilege if you honestly feel that a truthful answer
might tend to incriminate you. That is why I asked the
question, so we can determine whether or not he is entitled to
the privilege.
Mr. Reiss. On that basis, I would say that I have no
knowledge of any student of mine having attended a Communist
meeting.
The Chairman. Did you ever attempt to--strike ``to.''
Did you ever discuss the Communist philosophy--strike that
again, I am sorry, Mr. Reporter.
Did you ever try to in effect sell the Communist philosophy
or sell communism or indoctrinate the young men who were your
students outside of the classroom? You already said you did not
try to indoctrinate them in the classroom. The question is, did
you try to do it outside the classroom?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the Fifth
Amendment.
Mr. Chairman. You are entitled to it.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you are--I asked you about Mr. Foster. Now,
did you at any time serve as aide to William Z. Foster in the
Communist party.
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Did you accompany him constantly during any
period of time?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Eugene Dennis?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Simon Gerson?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been arrested or convicted of a
crime?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Were you in the year 1936 in the state of
Michigan?
Mr. Reiss. 1936?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Were you there in 1937?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a Communist party organizer in the year
1937?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a Communist party organizer in Louisiana
during part of the year 1937?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Were you arrested on May 26, 1937 in New Orleans,
Louisiana, for Communist activities?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Were you at that time, secretary of the Communist
party in Louisiana?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer.
Mr. Cohn. At 130 Chartres Street?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Did you give your New York address as the
headquarters of the Communist party of the United States on
12th Street?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Were you convicted of a violation of Section 1436
of the Michigan Penal Code in 1937? Sir?
Mr. Reiss. Just trying to rack my brain.
Mr. Cohn. Or Act 1--rather Section 902 of Act 107, both?
Mr. Reiss. What was that? I don't know what those----
Mr. Cohn. Section 107--the charge was no visible means of
support and vagrancy and specifically--well, let's say that is
the charge.
Mr. Reiss. Where was this?
Mr Cohn. New Orleans, Louisiana.
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. I will show you a document, which I will deem
marked Exhibit 1, and ask you to examine that and then tell us.
Mr. Reiss. I have read it.
Mr. Cohn. Does that refresh your recollection? I will ask
you the question again: Is your answer the same?
Mr. Reiss. The answer is the same.
Mr. Cohn. I will now show you a picture which I will deem
marked Exhibit 2 and ask you whether or not that is your
picture.
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated. On the same grounds. Pretty.
The Chairman. Is 35 East 12th Street, New York City, the
headquarters of the Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr Cohn. Interpreting this question broadly, Mr. Reiss,
have you ever engaged in any espionage activities against the
United States?
Mr. Reiss. What do you mean, ``broadly''?
Mr. Cohn. I will just ask the question: Have you ever
engaged in any espionage activities against the United States
in connection with the Polish Delegation to the United Nations
or to the Polish Government?
Mr. Reiss. Never.
Mr. Cohn. Pardon me?
Mr. Reiss. Never.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever engaged in sabotage?
Mr. Reiss. What do you mean by sabotage?
Mr. Cohn. You know what sabotage is.
The Chairman. May I?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, you asked whether or not he engaged
in espionage or--was it for the Polish Government? I would like
to reframe that and say: Have you ever engaged in any espionage
activities in this country?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are you aware of any espionage activities on
the part of anyone in this country?
Mr. Reiss. Shall I answer that now or wait for the senator?
Mr. Cohn. No. You can answer.
Mr. Reiss. I will say I am aware of the--from the press--
that people----
Mr. Cohn. No, no. Have you any personal knowledge?
Mr. Reiss. Personal knowledge of espionage activities?
Mr. Cohn. That is right.
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you any personal knowledge of activities
seeking to bring about the establishment or a Communist
government in the United States?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Have you in cooperation with any member or anyone
connected with the Polish Delegation engaged in any activities?
Mr. Reiss. To establish a Communist----
Mr. Cohn. That is right, toward establishing the Communist
government in the United States?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You say you have not?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Would you read that last question and answer,
please, Mr. Reporter?
[Record read.]
Mr. Cohn. Have you----
The Chairman. What did the witness have to say about it?
About what activities, espionage activities--
Mr. Cohn. He says he has no knowledge of that.
The Chairman. In other words, do I understand you are not
aware of any espionage activities on the part of anyone?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever discussed, Mr. Reiss, either
past or potential espionage activities on the part of any
members of the Communist party with other members of the
Communist party, that is? If you don't understand----
Mr. Reiss. Yes, I don't quite understand that.
The Chairman. Let me rephrase it. Have you ever discussed
with any members of the Communist party or heard discussed at
any Communist party meetings any espionage activities on the
part of any individuals?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ In public testimony on September 17, Julius Reiss answered:
``As I have stated, I have never been at any meeting where I have heard
espionage advocated.'' Senator McCarthy then read Reiss' refusal to
answer the question in his executive session testimony, and said: ``The
grounds previously stated were that a truthful answer might tend to
incriminate you. You tell us today that you did not here discussed any
espionage activities. Therefore when you appeared in executive session
and told us that a truthful answer might tend to incriminate you, you
were not properly invoking the fifth amendment, which of course makes
you in contempt of the committee. This is a very important
constitutional right which you nor any other Communist can play around
with, and you don't play around with it with this committee.
I will ask the committee to cite you for contempt or perjury
because you were not telling the truth when you told us that a truthful
answer would tend to incriminate you. Today you said you were not
present when such activities were discussed.
I may say there will be some delay in getting the citation. Can't
take it up until the Senate meets. But I am getting very sick of you
men engaged in the Communist conspiracy who come before this committee
and abuse the privilege granted under the fifth amendment. It is a very
important privilege. You are not going to use it to cover up your
conspiracy, if I can help it. You will be entitled to use the privilege
wherever you have the right.''
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever transmitted any information from
the American Communist party to any official of the Polish
Delegation of the United Nations?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever transmitted any information from
any member of the Polish Delegation to the United Nations to
the American Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. Who is your immediate superior up at the Polish--
--
Mr. Reiss. My superior? The permanent representative of the
delegation.
Mr. Cohn. Who is that?
Mr. Reiss. Mr. Henryk Birecki.
Mr. Cohn. Is he a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Reiss. I have no knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. You have no knowledge?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever discussed communism?
The Chairman. May I just off the record----
[Discussion off the record.]
Mr. Cohn. Were you born here or a naturalized citizen?
Mr. Reiss. I was born here.
Mr. Cohn. What is your date of birth?
Mr. Reiss. October 24, 1907.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you born?
Mr. Reiss. New York City.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married, by the way?
Mr. Reiss. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Is your wife a member of the party?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Cohn. What is your wife's maiden name?
Mr. Reiss. Gertrude Weixel.
Mr. Cohn. Gertrude what?
Mr. Reiss. W-e-i-x-e-l.
Mr. Cohn. By the way, what was your rank when you were
discharged from the army?
Mr. Reiss. Technical sergeant.
The Chairman. Were you under--pardon me, counsel.
Mr. Cohn. Go right ahead.
The Chairman. Were you under orders from the Communist
party at the time you were teaching in the army?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
The Chairman. I am going to show you a number of copies of
the Daily Worker. The first one is dated April 12, 1947, page
5, and there is an ad here which reads:
Tonight. Tonight 8:15 p.m. Joel Remes, Secretary National
Youth Committee, Communist Party, Assistant Editor Political
Affairs, speaks on Marxism and Liberalism. Admission 25 cents.
201 Second Avenue. Henry Forbes
--is that the section? ``Henry Forbes section.'' I believe
the other word is.
I am going to show this to you and see if--and then ask
whether this Joel Remes described in that ad is you.
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. I wonder if you would hand it back? I have
some other questions I want to ask you.
I call your attention to the Daily Worker of May 3, 1946,
page 13, an article entitled ``New Pamphlet on Socialism,
Weapons for Same,''and the subhead, ``Socialism: What's In It
For You?'' by A. B. Magill, New Century Publisher, 10 cents.''
The next subhead, ``Reviewed by Joel Remes.''
I want to hand that to you and ask you if that Joel Remes
is you.
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
The Chairman. I have several other questions to ask you
about articles in the Daily Worker, and I perhaps could
dispense with asking them; you would repeat your answer. But to
make the record complete, I will go through the motion of
asking. I also----
Mr. Reiss. Do you want to ask them all and then give them
back to me?
The Chairman. I think that is a good suggestion. One dated
November 5, 1946, page 11:
Communist Party on Theory and Practice, reviewed by Joel
Remes.
Another one is dated--another issue of the Daily Worker
dated June 25, 1941, page 5.
I believe I will have to ask you about each one
individually because the matter is different.
May I ask whether the Joel Remes referred to in the
November 5, 1946 articles, ``Communist Party on Theory and
Practice reviewed by Joel Remes'' is that Joel Remes is you?
I assume you refuse to answer that?
Mr Reiss. Yes. I wanted to look at it. I refuse to answer.
Just let me take a look at the others.
The Chairman. The next one has no significance. The one
after that.
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
The Chairman. I may say, Mr. Counsel, just off the record--
--
[Discussion off the record]
The Chairman. Have the record show the witness indicates
that he merely refuses, unless he states some other ground, the
ground is the Fifth Amendment.
I have page five of the Daily Worker dated June 25, 1941,
an article entitled, ``Workers School offers course in world
politics.'' This is in the nature of a news story, and it
states that Joel Remes will conduct the class which will be one
of twenty classes offered during that summer.
Number one: Did you conduct such a class and are you the
Joel Remes referred to therein?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
The Chairman. I have the Daily Worker dated June 14, 1941,
page--I believe it is page eight--an article entitled
``Registration opened for special Marxist summer courses to
begin July 7.'' Is this Joel Remes referred to in here?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
The Chairman. This story also refers to Joel Remes of the
Workers School faculty.
Question: Is this Joel Remes referred to herein you, and,
No. two, did you conduct such classes?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
The Chairman. I wonder if you will stay here a second and
save the trouble of passing it back and forth.
I also have the Daily Worker dated Tuesday, September 30,
page three, an article entitled, ``Keep on your toes at Workers
School,'' subhead, ``Special course for outstanding teachers
and additions to curriculum,'' and Joel Remes is referred to
again in this. Is that Joel Remes you?
Mr. Reiss. I refuse to answer under the grounds previously
stated.
The Chairman. One final question on this Daily Worker of
September 24, 1941, page three. ``Workers School course to
study Socialist State.''
I don't see----
Will you strike the last one, Mr. Reporter. I think that is
all.
Mr. Counsel, have you any further questions?
Mr. Cohn. No, Mr. Chairman.
I was saying to the senator we will definitely want Mr.
Reiss back probably sometime in the course of tomorrow. There
is no use making him sit around all day, so the best thing for
him to do. We are hearing other witnesses concerning his case,
and there will come a point where we will have to call him back
to get additional information.
Mr. France. I wonder, Senator, if I might ask this favor. I
am engaged with out of town people tomorrow morning. I wonder
if this could be tomorrow afternoon?
Mr. Cohn. We will certainly try to accommodate you.
The Chairman. I think we will give you the definite promise
he will not be called tomorrow morning.
Mr Cohn. You know at all times where you can get him. We
will wait until we need him and then we will get in touch with
you. We will skip tomorrow morning in deference to your
request.
The Chairman. You understand, Mr. Reiss, instead of having
you sit around in the outer room waiting until you are called,
we will leave it that when we need you, we will call your
counsel.
Mr. France. Thank you.
The Chairman. And let him know where you are at all times
so he can get you in a half hour's notice.
Mr. Reiss. In terms of time, it will be in the daytime?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Reiss. Between what hours?
The Chairman. Never be before ten; never be after at the
very latest 4:30. In other words, you need not worry about it
before ten o'clock and need not be worried after 4:30. In fact,
I would say four o'clock. Let's make it four o'clock. After
four o'clock we won't be calling you.
Mr. France. Excuse me. For your information, my telephone
number is MU 6-0450.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Reiss, I forgot to ask you this. Confirmatory
of something. How many other American citizens work in the
Polish Delegation?
Mr. Reiss. How many others?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Reiss. I really can't answer that, I am sorry.
Mr. Cohn. Will you name the ones? Would you name the ones
that you know of?
Mr. Reiss. You mean the ones I actually know on the
permanent staff there?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Reiss. I don't know their names. Right now I think
there is a chauffeur named Sal.
Mr. Cohn. How do you spell it?
Mr. Reiss. S-a-l. That is a chauffeur.
Mr. Cohn. Who else?
Mr. Reiss. Employed there now?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Reiss. There is a cleaning woman who comes in there and
I don't know who she is employed by.
Mr. Cohn. Let's forget about the cleaning woman for the
moment.
Mr. Reiss. Employed in the office of the permanent
delegation?
Mr. Cohn. I don't know about permanent or temporary or
anything like that; but any other American citizen working for
the Polish Delegation.
Mr. Reiss. The only one I know of is this fellow Sal.
Mr. Cohn. You know of no others?
Mr. Reiss. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know of any Americans employed by any
other foreign delegations?
Mr. Reiss. By my other office?
Mr. Cohn. Specifically, do you know of any American
employed by the Czechoslovakian Delegation?
Mr. Reiss. No, sir, I don't know whether they employ them
or not.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know of any other American employed by
another foreign delegation to the United Nations?
Mr. Reiss. Any other American employed by foreign
delegations?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Reiss. Frankly, I don't know. I might have bumped into
somebody, any of the other delegations, and it is possible I
might know, but at the moment it doesn't strike me.
Mr. Cohn. Okay. Thank you.
The Chairman. One final question. Did you ever make
arrangements for or accompany any Polish delegate to the
Communist headquarters where he spoke to a group?
You are not clear on that?
Mr. Reiss. Yes, I understand the question.
No, sir.
The Chairman. I have nothing further.
Mr. Cohn. Okay.
Mr. France. Good night.
[Witness excused.]
TESTIMONY OF FLORENCE ENGLANDER (RESUMED)
The Chairman. Just one or two questions.
Miss Englander. Yes.
The Chairman. I understand from our chief of staff that you
are willing to give the FBI any information you have about
the----
Miss Englander. Yes.
The Chairman. [continuing]. Communist activities?
Miss Englander. Yes.
The Chairman. I think, Frank, what you ought to do is
inform Mr. Hoover and tell him if they want to have a young
lady drop in on this young lady, she will give any information
she can, and you can arrange if possible at her convenience----
What hours do you work?
Miss Englander. 9:30 to 6:00, five days a week.
The Chairman. Have you any further questions?
Mr. Cohn. No. I think what we can do, Mr. Chairman, in view
of the fact the witness desires to be cooperative, we can work
with her on this and go over everything and we won't have to
bother.
The Chairman. Your name will not be given to the press,
incidentally, unless you give it to them. No one will know you
are here unless you tell the press.
The young man here from the United Nations, Mr. Sloan----
Miss Englander. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And he has been told he has the freedom to
discuss it with you as your superior but not any member of the
public. I merely mention to clear you on it, your name will not
be given out publicly unless you give it out.
Let me ask this. I assume, having worked some five years in
the Communist party having attended meetings and that sort of
thing, you will be able to give the FBI a sizeable number of
names?
Miss Englander. Yes, I will, whatever I recall.
The Chairman. I don't think we should go into that now, if
she is willing to give that to the FBI. That should be
sufficient.
You are not excused yet from the subpoena. I don't think we
will want you further, but consider yourself under the subpoena
in case we need you for some further information.
Miss Englander. Goodbye.
The Chairman. Good luck to you.
Miss Englander. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 4:30 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
SECURITY--UNITED NATIONS
[Editor's note.--Paul Crouch (1903-1955) had been court-
martialed by the U.S. Army in 1925 for attempting to form a
Communist League among soldiers in Hawaii. In his defense he
testified: ``I am in the habit of writing letters to my friends
and imaginary persons, sometimes to kings and other foreign
persons, in which I place myself in an imaginary position. I do
that to develop my imaginary powers. That is why this letter
was written. Part of it is true and part of it is not.''
Convicted, he served two years at Alcatraz. On his release, he
became active in the Communist party and remained a member
until 1942, after which he served as an expert witness in
numerous judicial and congressional proceedings against alleged
Communists. Crouch's memorandum on ``Communist Infiltration of
the American Armed Forces'' was one of the factors leading to
the subcommittee's investigation at Fort Monmouth.
In 1954, the newspaper columnists Joseph and Stewart Alsop
branded Crouch as a ``powerful imaginer,'' who fabricated many
of his allegations. They asserted that ``the Government has a
duty to investigate the reliability of the informers it
hires.'' After the Justice Department launched an
investigation, Crouch was dropped as a paid consultant in
deportation cases for the Immigration and Naturalization
Service. Crouch then wrote to J. Edgar Hoover, demanding that
the FBI investigate the attorney general and his staff for the
``frame-up conspiracy'' against him. He also filed a libel suit
against the Alsops, claiming that his reputation ``as an expert
witness, writer, lecturer, and researcher into communism and
Communist infiltration in the Untied States had suffered.'' The
case never went to trial. Crouch testified in public session on
September 17, 1953.
Abraham Unger (1899-1975), a founder of the National
Lawyers Guild, had appeared as counsel for Communist party
leaders accused of violating the Smith Act, and Jacob Reiss had
worked as a researcher for that case. In his testimony,
Although Unger did not invoke the Fifth Amendment, he adopted a
strategy that the chairman compared to filibustering. During
Unger's appearance at a public session on September 18, Senator
McCarthy ordered him removed from the hearing room. On August
16, 1954, the Senate cited Unger for contempt for his failure
to answer questions on the grounds that the the subcommittee
had ``no authority to inquire into the political beliefs and
opinions of any other person.'' On July 27, 1955, Judge Edward
Weinfeld dismissed the charges against Unger. The U.S. Court of
Appeals unanimously upheld the dismissal, finding that the
subcommittee lacked legislative authority to investigate
subversive activities by individuals outside the government.
Speaking to reporters after this executive session, Senator
McCarthy said that a $12,000-a-year American ``high official''
of the UN secretariat had admitted friendship with Communists
and had contributed to organizations listed by the attorney
general as Communist fronts. Despite the chairman's demands
that the UN dismiss this ``high official,'' Dimitry Varley
(1906-1984) remained in his position as an economist at the UN;
nor were any charges of perjury brought against him. Alice
Ehrenfeld [Weil] (1925-1996) later became the first woman
assistant secretary general at the United Nations, and director
of the UN's General Legal Division. Neither Varley nor
Ehrenfeld testified in public.]
----------
TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 15, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, N.Y.
The subcommittee met (pursuant to Senate Resolution 40,
agreed to January 30, 1953) at 10:30 a.m., in room 128, of the
United States Court House, Foley Square, New York, Senator
Joseph R. McCarthy, presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Francis P. Carr, executive director; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; and G. David Schine, chief consultant.
TESTIMONY OF PAUL CROUCH
The Chairman. Will you stand and raise your right hand,
please?
In the matter now in hearing before the committee, do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Crouch. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Crouch, were you at one time a member of the
Communist party.
Mr. Crouch. I was.
Mr. Cohn. During what years?
Mr. Crouch. From 1925 until early 1942.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a top functionary of the party?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, I was a top functionary throughout that
period, and a full-time organizer for fifteen years.
Mr. Cohn. What were some of the positions you held in the
Communist party?
Mr. Crouch. I was a representative of the Young Communist
League and the Communist party of the United States to the
meetings of the executive committee of the Communist
International, Young Communist International, Moscow; I was a
student and lecturer at the Frunze Military Academy and an
honorary officer of the Red Army; I was the head of the
Communist party's National Department for Infiltration of the
Armed Forces in the United States, national editorial director
of the Young Communist League, member of the editorial staff of
the Daily Worker, district organizer for the Communist party in
Virginia, New York and South Carolina, Tennessee and Utah;
member of the district bureau of the Communist party in the
Alabama district and the California district, Alameda County
organizer, 1941.
I was editor of the New South, Communist organ for the
southern States, 1937 to '39, and had been a member of the
editorial board of its predecessor paper, the Southern Worker,
since 1934.
I was a member of the Negro Trade Union Agricultural Anti-
Imperialist, Anti-Militarist Commissions of the Central
Committee of the Communist party of the United States, and
participated in the work of the Central Committee from 1927
until 1941. Those are some of the major positions.
Mr. Cohn. I don't know how you could have had time for
more. Now, Mr. Crouch, since the time you have left the party,
particularly in recent years, you have, under subpoena and at
the request of the United States government, testified at
various trials held in this courthouse and elsewhere throughout
the country for the government, and have given them what
information you have as a result of your membership and
activity in the party; is that right?
Mr. Crouch. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I recall, of course, you were a witness in the
trial in which Mr. [William] Remington was convicted in this
building.
Now, Mr. Crouch, when you were in the Communist party, did
you know a man named Joel Remes?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, I knew him from about 1934 until 1940 or
'41.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Remes, when you knew him, was he a member of
the Communist party?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, he was.
Mr. Cohn. Was he more than a member of the party?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, he was an official of the party throughout
the period I knew him, including such positions as
organizational secretary of the Communist party for the
Louisiana district, headquarters at New Orleans, and was----
Mr. Cohn. About when was that?
Mr. Crouch. That was, as nearly as I can recall, from about
late 1936 until 1948, approximately, and he was at that time in
charge of the Communist book store called the People's Book
Store at 130 Chartres Street in New Orleans, and in that
capacity he handled the distribution of the New South, of which
I was editor, and I had correspondence with him from time to
time regarding the distribution of the New South and regarding
supplying editorial material in it.
Mr. Cohn. Now I am going to show you a picture, Mr. Crouch,
and ask you if you can identify that as Mr. Remes.
Mr. Crouch. Yes, this is the Joel Remes I knew in the
Communist party.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Crouch, at that time, around 1937, in those
years, did you have any connection with the Communist party
counterpart of the Daily Worker down South?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, I was the editor of it.
Mr. Cohn. What was that called?
Mr. Crouch. It was first called the Southern Worker, and
then the New South, changing its name to the New South in 1937.
Mr. Cohn. Now, were you in charge of subscriptions to that
Communist publication?
Mr. Crouch. I was.
Mr. Cohn. And you kept a little cardboard box containing
the cards with names of subscribers throughout the years; is
that right?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, a box that I brought in and was introduced
as evidence in the trial of William Remington.
Mr. Cohn. That is the box in which you produced the card
showing William Remington was a subscriber to this Communist
publication, received at the official post office box of the
Communist party; right?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. And in that same box, did you find a card
indicating that you had shipped twenty-five copies of this
Communist publication to the People's Book Store, at 110
Chartres Street, New Orleans, Louisiana?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir. The original is in a box which is in
the custody of the government, and I have a photostat prepared
at the time of the Remington trial, and one of the photostats
shows the bundle order going to the People's Book Store at 130
Chartres Street, of twenty-five copies per month.
Mr. Cohn. Was Remes the man you were dealing with there?
Mr. Crouch. He was.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know any relatives of Remes in the
Communist party?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, his brother, Andy Remes, was one of my
closest friends in the Communist party over many years. I had
long, detailed discussions on many matters--and incidentally,
his brother, Andy Remes, played a very important role both in
my decision to leave the party and increasing my fear of the
consequences of leaving, as a result of his connections with
the whitewash of what was unquestionably a G.P.U. murder of
Laura Law, of Aberdeen, Washington, about January 4, 1940.
Mr. Cohn. Was Laura Law any relation to Joel Remes and
Andrew Remes?
Mr. Crouch. No, she was--she and her husband had been
members of the Communist party under Andy Remes' jurisdiction
as secretary for the Northwest district. She broke with the
Communist party in the fall of 1939 and informed the party that
she was going to the government and tell what she knew about
the party. Shortly thereafter her body was found with her head
crushed in, and her chest and back covered with brutal stab
wounds--unquestionably a G.P.U. murder to silence her, to
prevent her from telling her extensive knowledge of the party
apparatus throughout the northwest.
Andy Remes played a leading part in the whitewash of this
case, and as he described it to me, by taking the offensive and
charging that industrialists had Laura Law murdered because of
her husband's union activities.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, will you receive this photostatic
copy of this card in evidence and have it deemed marked as
Exhibit 1?
The Chairman. Yes, it is received.
Mr Cohn. And the picture of Remes which was identified by
Mr. Crouch we will have deemed marked as Exhibit 2.
And this criminal record, a certified copy of which we
received, we will have deemed marked Exhibit 3. We received a
certified copy from the police department at New Orleans,
Louisiana.
The Chairman. Mr. Crouch, there is something we have often
wondered about, and maybe you can enlighten us. In the trial of
this Scientist X, as I recall, you had considerable information
and evidence on him. Why weren't you called by the Justice
Department in that case, if you know?
Mr. Crouch. I was called as an expert witness in rebuttal,
but was not permitted to describe my knowledge of him as a
member of the party, or to describe the closed meetings of the
Communist party I had attended. And my wife [Sylvia Crouch],
who was under subpoena in the trial, was not called at all, and
I was advised informally to the effect that it was impossible
for us to give our testimony without bringing in the name of an
internationally famous scientist who was also a member of the
Communist party, who had been present at the meetings with
Scientist X.
The Chairman. Who in the Justice Department told you you
could not be used to testify about your knowledge of Scientist
X, his Communist activities?
Mr. Crouch. Mr. Cunningham, of the Justice Department, and
Mr. Hitz, assistant United States attorney, advised me that I
would not be questioned because our testimony would bring in
his name.
The Chairman. Bring in the name of Robert Oppenheimer?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir. Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer.
The Chairman. Both you and your wife, I understand, then,
were available; the Justice Department knew you had attended
Communist party meetings with Scientist X, and one of the
issues was whether or not he was a Communist?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And the jury found him not to be a Communist,
ultimately?
Mr. Crouch. They found him not guilty due to lack of
sufficient identifying witnesses who had been in closed
meetings with him, that is, witnesses who could testify to that
effect.
The Chairman. Just for the record, was he being tried for
perjury?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And one of the counts was that he committed
perjury when he said he was not a Communist?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And because of lack of evidence, he was
acquitted?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And both you and your wife, when members of
the Communist party, had attended these closed Communist party
meetings with him, and you were informed by two Justice
Department lawyers that you would not be used because if you
were used and you were examined as to who else was there, you
would have had to identify Robert J. Oppenheimer; is that it?
Mr. Crouch. To that effect, yes, sir.
The Chairman. Did they say who had given them those
instructions?
Mr. Crouch. No, sir, they did not, they did not indicate it
in any way.
The Chairman. When was this trial held?
Mr. Crouch. Last year.
The Chairman. What was the date of that trial, Roy?
Mr. Cohn. I don't know the exact date.
The Chairman. And Scientist X, who has been identified, as
Scientist X, what is his name again?
Mr. Crouch. Dr. Joseph Weinberg.
The Chairman. Is there any doubt in your mind that
Oppenheimer was a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Crouch. No, sir, none whatever. I met him in a closed
meeting of the Communist party in a house which was
subsequently found to have been his residence at the time,
although I did not know it then, and following that I met him
at quite a number of Communist party affairs in Alameda County.
The Chairman. I noticed with some interest Oppenheimer's
articles in regard to the H-bomb, for example; he vigorously
opposed our proceeding with any experimentation in the
development of the H-bomb. When he lost out in that, he now has
taken the position that we should not have an air force capable
of delivering that bomb. Maybe I am simplifying it a bit, but
in fact that is his argument. His argument has been that we
should build a screen of defense around this nation.
From your knowledge of the working of the Communist party,
do you know whether or not that was the policy of the Communist
party at that time?
Mr. Crouch. His position, in substance, his efforts have
corresponded with the efforts of the Communist press throughout
this period. The Communist press has sought to prevent the
development of the H-bomb. They have sought to obtain a U.S.
pledge not to use the atomic bomb, first in time of war, and
their policy has coincided with the public statements of Dr. J.
Robert Oppenheimer and the authoritative press accounts of J.
Robert Oppenheimer's position as appeared recently in Fortune
magazine, Life, and others.
The Chairman. Just to refresh my recollection and to get
the record straight on this, is it correct that after you
notified the FBI that you had attended a closed Communist
meeting with Oppenheimer that they drove you around the city of
Los Angeles to find the house in which you had attended that
meeting?
Mr. Crouch. Not Los Angeles--in Berkeley, California.
The Chairman. In Berkeley?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir. FBI Agent Brush, and another FBI
agent----
The Chairman. Brush?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. B-r-u-s-h?
Mr. Crouch. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know his first name?
Mr. Crouch. I don't recall.
The Chairman. Do you know the other agent's name?
Mr. Crouch. Modehouse, or a similar name.
The Chairman. In any event, they drove you around Berkeley
to see if you could find the house in which you had attended
the meeting with Oppenheimer; is that correct?
Mr. Crouch. That's right.
The Chairman. And you drew a diagram for them of the inside
of the house?
Mr. Crouch. Exterior and interior, before the house was
located.
The Chairman. So that before the house was located you gave
them a drawing of the interior of the house in which you
attended the meeting, and you described the exterior of the
house; you didn't know the address, so they drove you around
until you found the house?
Mr. Crouch. That's correct. All I knew was the house was in
the hills around Berkeley, overlooking the bay. That's all I
knew. I gave these drawings to the FBI and to the California
Un-American Activities Committee.
The Chairman. Now, when someone from the FBI later went
into this house, did they find that your drawing of the
interior was an accurate drawing of the house?
Mr. Crouch. I don't know whether the FBI went into the
interior or not, but they told me they had obtained information
regarding the interior, and that the interior corresponded to
my drawings and description.
The Chairman. Was it discovered then also that at the time
the meeting was held in this house, the meeting which you
attended, that he was living in that house?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. In other words, that was his home?
Mr. Crouch. That was the first information I obtained that
that was the home of J. Robert Oppenheimer, was from the FBI,
from Agent Brush.
The Chairman. How many Communist meetings would you say you
attended with Oppenheimer?
Mr. Crouch. I attended one closed meeting restricted only
to party members, where I gave an official report. I attended a
number, at least six, social affairs arranged by the Communist
party, where he was present, one being at the home of Kenneth
May, one being an affair arranged to raise funds for the
Spanish Communists.
Incidentally, I talked with Dr. Oppenheimer last year in
the presence of Justice Department officials and Dr.
Oppenheimer recalled one of these occasions, the one to raise
funds for Spain, and placed the date of it as the night before
Pearl Harbor, in the presence of Mr. Cunningham and Mr. Hitz.
As for the other affairs, he said, in substance, he attended so
many Communist-arranged affairs, he couldn't recall how many;
he might well have been at the one at Kenneth May's home. He
could not recall the closed meeting at his own home or my
report there. He did recall one meeting at which Mr. William
Schneiderman was present in 1941.
The Chairman. Now, there are two Oppenheimers, both rather
famous, and I think we should have the record clear that you
are speaking about the Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer.
Mr. Crouch. Yes, I knew both. I knew his brother, Frank as
a Communist, also, and identified Frank as a Communist in
testimony before the House Committee on Un-American Activities
in May of 1949.
The Chairman. Did your wife attend the closed meetings with
Oppenheimer?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, she did.
The Chairman. Do you know of anyone besides you and your
wife who can testify as to Oppenheimer's membership in the
Communist party?
Mr. Crouch. Not offhand.
The Chairman. I might say it is important beyond words, and
dangerous, of course--I am sure you will agree with me--if our
top atomic scientist is a member of the Communist conspiracy.
It would be extremely important if we could get additional
witnesses who were present physically and knew he was a member
of the party.
Mr. Crouch. I might say, Senator, that in my work with the
California Un-American Activities Committee I learned that
military intelligence has a vast amount of evidence regarding
his membership in the Communist party and his Communist
activities, and that the California Un-American Activities
Committee has a great deal of information which, of course,
would be at the disposal of this committee.
The Chairman. Do you know why the Justice Department and
the California committee have apparently shied off at the
exposure of Oppenheimer?
Mr. Crouch. The California committee has tried to go into
this. They brought out a great deal of information, including
testimony by both myself and my wife, Sylvia, in their
published report for the year--reported in 1951, covering the
year 1950. They gave a great deal of information in this report
on the background of both J. Robert Oppenheimer and his wife,
who--one of whose husbands was killed in Spain while fighting
with the Communist forces there, and during the California
hearing the state committee out there in California issued a
public invitation to Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer to appear before
the committee, as an invitation to both Dr. Oppenheimer and his
wife, Katherine, to appear before the committee, and both Dr.
Oppenheimer and his wife ignored the invitation. The California
committee had no power of subpoena and has been unable to
follow up on the matter.
The Chairman. Do I understand you to say that his wife's
former husband was killed in Spain fighting on the Communist
side?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, I might say further, so there should be no
confusion, that his wife, Katherine, was born Katherine
Puening, in Germany; came to the United States and is a citizen
by virtue of her father's naturalization while she was a minor.
She was first married to a man named Ranseyer. According to
many people in intelligence, her second husband was the one
killed in Spain, named Joseph Dallet, who had been a Young
Communist League organizer in Ohio. Her third husband, after
this husband was killed in Spain in 1936 or early 1937, her
third husband was Richard Stewart-Harrison, of Great Britain,
from whom she was divorced in January 1940, and married Dr. J.
Robert Oppenheimer in November of 1940.
The Chairman. I missed your last few words. Did you say
that this husband was a Communist?
Mr. Crouch. Yes.
The Chairman. The third husband?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, the one killed in Spain. I don't know
whether the other two previous husbands were Communists, or
not, but the one killed in Spain was a Communist and a very
close friend of Steve Nelson.
Incidentally, according to many public statements, Mrs.
Oppenheimer introduced her friend, Steve Nelson, to J. Robert
Oppenheimer, who was a frequent guest at the Oppenheimer home
during the 1940 to 1942 period when Dr. Oppenheimer was in
charge of work on the atomic bomb.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: Is there any doubt in
your mind but what Oppenheimer was under Communist party
discipline at the time you were attending these Communist
meetings with him?
Mr. Crouch. No, sir, none whatever.
The Chairman. And if he were under Communist party
discipline, he, of course, would be bound to turn over any
atomic secrets to them that he had available?
Mr. Crouch. That the party directed.
The Chairman. And naturally they would be interested in any
atomic information he had?
Mr. Crouch. Yes, sir. Just as a matter of fact, the
Communist party might have chosen to direct him to turn over
the information; they might have chosen to direct him to
appoint other Communists to key positions who would in turn
turn over the information. It is a matter of record that Dr.
Oppenheimer has appointed many Communists to key positions in
the atomic energy program. For example, Lloyd Lehman, who had
been associated with Dr. Oppenheimer, in the Communist party
around 1940, was given a job at Dr. Oppenheimer's
recommendation in the radiation laboratory in California around
1942. Later, Lloyd Lehman left the laboratory and became the
open Communist party organizer for Alameda County in
California.
Another man who has admitted former membership in the
Communist party, Dr. Hawkins, was brought from California to
Los Alamos, although he was not a physicist, made historian for
the project, and given access to virtually all classified and
confidential matters there.
There are many other Communists who were employed by Dr.
Oppenheimer and also, according to the California committee's
information, Dr. Oppenheimer was active in urging atomic
scientists to join a Communist espionage apparatus called the
FAECT--Federation of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and
Technicians--headed by Marcel Scherer, who had been trained in
the espionage schools in Moscow and who had been in charge of
infiltration of scientists since 1928, to my personal
knowledge.
The Chairman. This FAECT was headed by a man who went to
the Moscow School of Espionage and Sabotage?
Mr. Crouch. Yes.
The. Chairman. That is the Lenin school?
Mr. Crouch. Yes.
The Chairman. Where is he now, do you know?
Mr. Crouch. He is in New York City at the present time.
The Chairman. Is he connected with atomic work now, do you
know?
Mr. Crouch. I don't know.
The Chairman. What is his name?
Mr. Crouch. Marcel Scherer.
The Chairman. Oh, yes.
Mr. Crouch. I personally participated in discussions that
set up this apparatus for scientific espionage in 1928 and was
present at discussions between Scherer and William Z. Foster,
and Scherer and Communist international representatives from
Moscow, when this project was approved.
The Chairman. That will be all, then, for today.
[Witness excused.]
TESTIMONY OF DIMITRY VARLEY (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, HERMAN
A. GRAY)
The Chairman. Will you stand up and raise your right hand,
please?
In this matter now on hearing before the committee, do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Varley. I do.
The Chairman. Mr. Varley, you have the right to consult
with your counsel at any time you care to, advise with him
whenever you think it is necessary. If you care to, I will be
glad to give you a private room in which to have a conference,
if anything comes up of sufficient importance that you think
you require that. Counsel is not allowed to take part in the
proceedings other than that.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Varley, what is your position?
Mr Varley. I am employed by the United Nations as an
economist.
Mr. Cohn. Talk a little louder, and tell us specifically
what your position is.
Mr. Varley. I am a senior economic affairs officer in the
Department of Economic Affairs in the United Nations.
Mr. Cohn. What is your salary?
Mr. Varley. Gross salary is $12,000.
Mr. Cohn. $12,000 a year?
Mr. Varley. I think $12,000 and a few odd dollars.
Mr. Cohn. Yes, $12,000 and some odd dollars.
Mr. Varley. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you been with the United Nations?
Mr. Varley. Since the fall of 1946.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before that?
Mr. Varley. I was with UNRRA.
Mr. Cohn. You were with UNRRA before that?
Mr. Varley. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Who was director general of UNRRA when you were
appointed?
Mr. Varley. Mr. Lehman.
Mr. Cohn. Was Mr. Weintraub in UNRRA when you came there?
Mr. Varley. He was.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work with him in UNRRA?
Mr. Varley. I was working with him in the same bureau.
Mr. Cohn. And Mr. Lehman was the director general?
Mr. Varley. Right.
Mr. Cohn. Or director-whatever you call it?
Mr. Varley. I think it is director general.
Mr. Cohn. Director general.
Now, where were you before you went with UNRRA?
Mr. Varley. I was in the army.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time were you in the
army?
Mr. Varley. For approximately one year and six months.
Mr. Cohn. What were your duties in the army?
Mr. Varley. I started with the air force, and then I was
attached to the Office of Strategic Services.
Mr. Cohn. OSS? What did you do with OSS?
Mr. Varley. I was attached to the research branch, which I
believe was called Russian Economic Analysis. I am not sure
about the exact title of the branch.
Mr. Cohn. What rank did you hold in the army, by the way?
What was your rank in the army?
Mr. Varley. I was a sergeant in the army.
Mr. Cohn. A sergeant. Now, have you ever contributed any
money to any Communist front organization?
Mr. Varley. Will you explain your question? May I ask my
lawyer?
Mr. Cohn. Surely. You can ask anything you want.
[Whereupon, Mr. Varley consulted with his counsel.]
Mr. Varley. Could you tell me what you mean by ``Communist
front organization''?
Mr. Cohn. Surely. For one example, I will give you an
organization listed by the attorney general as subversive.
Mr. Varley. I never saw or consulted the list. I know some
of them.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you this: Did you and your wife ever
contribute to the American Committee for the Protection of
Foreign Born?
Mr. Varley. I did.
Mr. Cohn. When? In 1950?
Mr. Varley. Yes, I think last time I did was in 1950.
Mr. Cohn. How about the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln
Brigade?
Mr. Varley. I might have. I am not sure.
Mr. Cohn. Isn't it a fact that you did in 1947 contribute
to the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade?
Mr. Varley. Well, I don't clearly remember whether I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear of the Veterans of the Abraham
Lincoln Brigade?
Mr. Varley. I did.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think you gave them any money?
Mr. Varley. I might have, but----
Mr. Cohn. Now, is 1950 the last time when you contributed
to the American Committee for the Protection of the Foreign
born?
Mr. Varley. I think so. That is, to my best recollection,
yes. Might have been 1950--I mean, it might have been, let us
say, first month of 1951.
Mr. Cohn. Well, around '50, '51?
Mr. Varley. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. You are clear you did not contribute in '52?
Mr. Varley. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever a member of the State, County, and
Municipal Workers Union, Local 28?
Mr. Varley. I was.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that was under Communist domination?
Mr. Varley. No.
Mr. Cohn. When did you find that out?
Mr. Varley. Pardon me? Will you repeat the question?
Mr. Cohn. Read the question, please.
[Whereupon, the last question was read by the reporter.]
Mr. Varley. To my best knowledge, it never was under
Communist domination.
Mr. Cohn. You have never heard that?
Mr. Varley. I heard subsequently, after I left the union,
that it was referred as left wing CIO union.
The Chairman. Who got you your job originally? Mr.
Weintraub?
Mr. Varley. Where?
The Chairman. In the UN.
Mr. Varley. The UN? Yes, he recommended me to the United
Nations.
The Chairman. Did you know that Weintraub was a Communist?
Mr. Varley. No.
The Chairman. When did you first hear that he was?
Mr. Varley. I never heard that he was a Communist.
Mr. Cohn. You never heard that he was?
Mr. Varley. Well, I have seen the reference in the papers,
accusations, but that is--even there I am not sure he was--he
said that he was a Communist.
Mr. Cohn. Did you read Whittaker Chambers' testimony?
Mr. Varley. No.
The Chairman. Did you and he ever talk over the affairs of
the Communist party?
Mr. Varley. Excuse me, may I just come back to that
question?
Mr. Cohn. Surely.
Mr. Varley. Did I read Whittaker Chambers' testimony?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Varley. Well, I have seen some bits of it, I mean here
and there in the papers, but I haven't seen his testimony about
Mr. Wetntraub.
The Chairman. Did you and Mr. Weintraub ever discuss the
work or the objectives of the Communist party?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never did?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never had any reason to believe he was a
Communist?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Now, have you ever been a registered member of
the American Labor party?
Mr. Varley. I was.
Mr. Cohn. Up through what year?
Well, the election records show you were a registered
member of the American Labor party in 1937, 1938, 1939, 1940,
'41, '43, '44, '49, '50, '51; is that right?
Mr. Varley. I couldn't have possibly registered in 1951,
because I think I wasn't in the country in 1951, at that time.
Mr. Cohn. At what time?
Mr. Varley. Well, last time I could have registered would
be at the time of primary registrations or elections. It would
be '49 or '50.
Mr. Cohn. Well, the last time you did register, say in
1950, did you register American Labor party?
Mr. Varley. Yes, I did, last time.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know the American Labor party had been
named as a Communist front by the House committee?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't you know it was----
Mr. Varley. You mean that was named as a Communist
organization?
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that that was under Communist
domination and had been officially listed as a Communist front
by the House committee?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You did not. Hadn't you heard that it was under
Communist control?
Mr. Varley. May I consult----
Mr. Cohn. Surely.
[Whereupon, Mr. Varley consulted with his counsel.]
Mr. Varley. I have seen reference to that fact in the
newspapers, particularly during the election campaign.
The Chairman. Did you think it was Communist-controlled?
Mr. Varley. No, sir. My whole contact with American Labor
party amounted to my registering with American Labor party.
The Chairman. The question is: Did you think it was
Communist-controlled?
Mr. Varley. I really don't know.
The Chairman. Did you have any reason to believe that you
were registering in a front for the Communist party?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You did not think it was Communist-
controlled?
Mr. Varley. Senator, if I would have thought it was
Communist-controlled, I wouldn't have registered.
The Chairman. The question is: Did you think it was
Communist-controlled? It is a very simple question.
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You did not?
Mr. Varley. No.
The Chairman. You appeared before the grand jury, didn't
you?
Mr. Varley. I did appear before the grand jury.
The Chairman. Several times?
Mr. Varley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you know there is a recommendation to the
UN that your services be dispensed with; is that correct?
Mr. Varley. I don't know of this.
The Chairman. Didn't you hear that there was a
recommendation that you be fired? You were told that, weren't
you?
Mr. Varley. The grand jury recommended that I would be
fired? No, sir.
The Chairman. It was in the presentment of the grand jury,
was it not, that you should be removed from the UN?
Mr. Varley. No, sir, I never heard that.
The Chairman. You never heard that?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never knew anything about it?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. No one ever told you that?
Mr. Varley. The grand jury recommended that I would be
fired? No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you know they made a recommendation
concerning you?
Mr. Varley. The grand jury?
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Never heard it?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. No one ever told you that?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you read the presentment?
Mr. Varley. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't you see any reference to yourself in the
presentment?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You understand, the grand jury presentment did
not mention names. Didn't you see a very clear description of
yourself in there? I mean, can you tell us honestly that you
read that presentment and didn't see any portion which you
thought referred to you?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Oh, really?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. What was the occasion of your reading the
presentment? Were you looking for references to yourself?
Mr. Varley. Well, I read the presentment when it appeared
in the newspapers.
The Chairman. Were you looking for references to yourself?
Mr. Varley. I can't answer that question in that way, sir,
because I just read whatever was in there, and now the counsel
asks me a question whether I found any----
The Chairman. When you read the presentment--you say you
read it--my question is very simple: Were you looking for
references to yourself, you having appeared before that grand
jury?
Mr. Varley. Could I put it this way--that I did not expect
to find reference to myself, and therefore I didn't look for
reference to myself.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Varley, as a matter of fact, to put it
frankly here, you are not very careful about telling the truth,
are you?
Mr. Varley. I think I do tell the truth.
Mr. Cohn. Well, now, you were before a grand jury, and I
asked you, before the grand jury, whether or not you had ever
been arrested or convicted, and you denied it at first and then
admitted it later; isn't that a fact?
Mr. Varley. I don't know what--[consulting with counsel].
Would you mind repeating the question?
Mr. Cohn. Read the question, please.
[Whereupon, the last question was read by the reporter.]
Mr. Varley. I never admitted that I was arrested.
Mr. Cohn. You never admitted that you were arrested?
Mr. Varley. No.
Mr. Cohn. You still don't think you were arrested?
Mr. Varley. That's right.
Mr. Cohn. I see. You got some good legal opinions about
that; is that right?
The Chairman. Is it your testimony that you had never been
arrested?
Mr. Varley. That's right, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What do you think, the records of the New York
Police Department are forged?
Mr. Varley. Well, I asked my lawyer to consult the records
and also tried to recollect the matter, and all my recollection
was that I was summoned before the court of magistrates.
Mr. Cohn. Isn't it a fact that--I regret the necessity of
going into this again--but isn't it a fact that you were found
by members of the New York City Police Department in the men's
room and 50-something Street and Lexington Avenue on December,
29, 1941, arrested on a morals charge, and that you pleaded
guilty and paid the fines, or you were given an alternative of
a fine or a jail sentence and you paid the fines, not only for
yourself but for the other man who was taken in along with you,
a man named Leonardo Boronek? Isn't that a fact?
Mr. Varley. Would you give me the question?
[Whereupon, the last question was read by the reporter.]
Mr. Cohn. Before you get to that, would you please add
this, Mr. Stenographer: the names of the policemen were
Valentine Piccirilli and William Vogel. Now, would you answer
that question?
Mr. Varley. This is not a fact.
Mr. Cohn. Tell me where it isn't a fact.
Mr. Varley. I was never arrested, and I was never convicted
on a morals charge.
Mr. Cohn. Tell us what happened.
The Chairman. Were you picked up by the policemen?
Mr. Varley. I was.
The Chairman. You were picked up by the policemen?
Mr. Varley. The policemen did talk to me, but I was not
arrested.
The Chairman. Did they take you along with them?
Mr. Varley. The policemen told me that----
The Chairman. Did they take you along with them?
Mr. Varley. No, they didn't. The policemen told me, as I
recollect it, that after we had very brief discussion, ``Let
the magistrate's court figure that out,'' words to that effect.
The Chairman. Did they take you down to the magistrate?
Mr. Varley. We went to the magistrate's court, all
together.
The Chairman. The policemen picked you up, they took you
down to the magistrate; is that right?
Mr. Varley. He didn't pick me up. He said that ``Well, let
all of us go to the magistrate court.''
The Chairman. All right. When I say ``picked you up,'' what
do you understand that I mean?
You said he didn't pick you up. What do you think it means
to get picked up?
Mr. Varley. What the counsel says, to be arrested.
The Chairman. And the policeman came in and took you to the
magistrate; is that right?
Mr. Varley. He said, ``Let's go to the magistrate.'' He
didn't say, ``You are arrested.'' I didn't resist----
The Chairman. Did he take you down in a police car? Did
they take you down in a police car?
Mr. Varley. I think it was an ordinary automobile.
The Chairman. They took you down in their car, did they?
Mr. Varley. We went in their car.
The Chairman. All right. They took you to the magistrate?
Mr. Varley. We went down to the magistrate's court.
The Chairman. They took you in their car to the magistrate,
is that correct?
Mr. Varley. May I say how I remember what happened?
The Chairman. No, you answer my questions. I may say that
if the policeman's testimony is correct, you have perjured
yourself about three times now. You can keep on if you want to,
or you can tell us the truth.
I will repeat the question: Did they take you in their car
to the magistrate? Either yes or no?
Mr. Varley. Yes.
The Chairman. They did, all right. Did they file charges
against you?
Mr. Varley. Yes, there was a summons by a policeman.
The Chairman. All right. And were you found guilty?
Mr Varley. I pleaded guilty.
The Chairman. You pleaded guilty?
Mr. Varley. Yes.
The Chairman. You paid a fine?
Mr. Varley. I paid a fine.
The Chairman. And did you pay the other man's fine, too?
Mr. Varley. I did.
The Chairman. You say you were never arrested?
Mr. Varley. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Mr. Cohn, I want this transmitted to the U.S.
attorney, a clear case of perjury.
Have you ever been arrested at any other time?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did the policemen ever pick you up at any
other occasion?
Mr. Varley. In the same sense as in that case, in
connection with automobile incidents, yes.
The Chairman. How many times?
Mr. Varley. Several times.
The Chairman. On the same type of charge?
Mr. Varley. Well, the charge dealt with some violation of
traffic, but I do not recall what exactly was the nature of the
charge. It was some kind of an offense, similar charge.
The Chairman. How many times did policemen pick you up on
any other charges? How many times?
Mr. Varley. You mean bring me to the magistrate's court
directly?
The Chairman. Do you understand what I mean? You can keep
on perjuring yourself, if you want to.
Mr. Varley. I am trying to do my best and not to try to
evade the question, but in the first case you said, did the
policeman pick me up and bring me to the magistrate's court.
Well, I had summons given to me before by the policemen.
The Chairman. All right. How many times?
Mr. Varley. Well, I recall at least one case in the state
of Connecticut, when there was minor traffic accident and we
went to a police station.
The Chairman. And what were you charged with?
Mr. Varley. I know I paid a fine of about, around $15, I
think.
The Chairman. What were you charged with?
Mr. Varley. I don't remember the charge, sir.
The Chairman. You don't remember?
Mr. Varley. No. It was some kind of offense in the state of
Connecticut.
The Chairman. Were you charged with drunkenness?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were not?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are you sure of that?
Mr. Varley. I am positive.
The Chairman. Have you ever been charged with drunkenness?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever been found guilty on a morals
charge?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. No?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever pleaded guilty on a morals
charge?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never have?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never have been either convicted or
pleaded guilty to any charge involving morals?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
The Chairman. Your answer is no?
Mr. Varley. That's right.
The Chairman. You are sure of that?
Mr. Varley. I am sure of that, sir.
Mr. Chairman. Mr. Cohn, we want the magistrate's record and
the policeman in here who arrested him before he was found
guilty. This is a clear case of perjury.
Mr. Cohn. What do you think you were picked up for by the
policemen at the time you were taken down to court in the
policemen's car? Didn't they tell you?
Mr. Varley. It was a charge of loitering.
Mr. Cohn. With another man; is that right?
Mr. Varley. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. No? Was there another man there? You paid another
man's fine, didn't you?
Mr. Varley. I paid the other man's fine.
Mr. Cohn. Yes, you paid your own fine and you paid his
fine, too, didn't you?
Mr. Varley. When he pleaded guilty and he said he had no
money to pay, I felt sorry for the guy, and paid his fine.
Mr. Cohn. How long had you known this other man?
Mr. Varley. How long what?
Mr. Cohn. How long had you known the other man? You know,
you make it very difficult, Mr. Varley. This isn't the kind of
thing----
Mr. Varley. I didn't know the man.
Mr. Cohn. You met him in the men's room, then, didn't you?
Mr. Varley. I didn't meet him. He was in the men's room.
The Chairman. So it was a man whom you never knew, whom you
never met, and you paid his fine; is that correct?
Mr. Varley. That's right.
The Chairman. You will return at 2:30 this afternoon. You
are excused until 2:30.
[Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., a luncheon recess was taken
until 2:30 p.m.]
afternoon session
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM UNGER (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, BERNARD
JAFFE)
The Chairman. Will you stand and raise your right hand,
please?
In this matter now on hearing before the committee, do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Unger. I do.
Mr. Jaffe. May I ask the senator something?
Mr. Unger. I was served with this subpoena yesterday. I
haven't had a chance to talk to him until about noon or so
today, and I was wondering whether or not we could possibly
adjourn this hearing so that I could have an opportunity to
look into the matter.
The Chairman. Well, how much time would you want?
Mr. Jaffe. Well, I would like a week, if possible.
Also, whom am I speaking to? I know you; you are Mr. Cohn.
Who is this gentleman?
Mr. Cohn. I am Mr. Cohn, counsel for the committee. This is
Senator McCarthy.
This is Frank Carr, executive director of the committee.
This gentleman here is from the legal division of the United
Nations.
Mr. Unger. I see. I make that same request. I think it is a
reasonable request which should be granted, if at all possible.
But in addition, I think you ought to indicate to me what the
purpose of the examination is so that I might have some idea
why it is that you are calling me as a witness. What is the
object of this inquiry by this senatorial committee? Those are
the two things we address to you.
The Chairman. I think your second request is certainly
reasonable, that you be notified why you are called. Obviously,
you are entitled to that. I believe until you know why you are
called and what information the committee wants from you, it
will be impossible for you to know from you whether you need a
day, or a week, or how much adjournment you need. You are
called in connection with an investigation of Communist
influence in the UN and in connection with alleged Communists
working there, one of whom, Mr. Remes, or Mr. Reiss. I think
his name now is Mr. Reiss--according to our information, worked
either for you or in your office, and I think the information
we want to get from you principally is with regard to this
fellow Remes. Now, I would suggest----
Mr. Unger. You are off on the wrong track, I want to tell
you that right now.
The Chairman. May I say this, that after Roy starts
questioning you, if you feel that you need a week's time to
discuss the matter with your lawyer, that is something that can
certainly be considered. I am inclined to think that the
questions will be of such a very simple nature that you won't
need any additional time on them.
Let me say this: I will let counsel proceed, and if after
he asks certain questions you think that you need additional
time, I am sure we can work that out.
Mr. Jaffe. Let me say this, Senator: I am a lawyer; I don't
know anything about the questions you are going to ask or
anything else. As far as I am concerned, whatever the problem
is, I would need time, because I don't know what the entire
situation is. Now, it may be that Mr. Unger wants to go ahead
without that. I mean, as far as I am concerned, you tell me
this; the names that you refer to don't mean anything to me.
Whether they mean anything to Mr. Unger, I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. You are not the witness.
Mr. Jaffe. I understand that. What I would like to do is to
have an opportunity to consult with him before I can advise him
about anything.
The Chairman. I think that is a reasonable request. You can
use the private office to discuss the matter, and then we will
take----
Mr. Cohn. There is only one name, Joel Remes, also known as
Julius Reiss.
Mr. Unger. I certainly would defer to counsel in the
suggestion that you make to confer together, and as we are told
here, it can be done privately.
But I will say this, so that there will be no question
about it. We are being given representation here that is the
purpose of the inquiry in so far as this witness is concerned.
On that representation, I see no reason why we can't ascertain
what it is that they are inquiring about as indicated here, and
then if any situation arises which requires conferring, we will
confer.
The Chairman. I think that is a good suggestion. If
something arises which makes you feel it is necessary to have a
conference, or a postponement, we can work it out. I am sure.
We will have no trouble about that.
Mr. Cohn. Could we have your full name, please?
Mr. Unger. I gave it to the stenographer--Abraham Unger.
Mr. Cohn. And you gave your address?
Mr. Unger. I did.
Mr. Cohn. Fine. What is your profession, Mr. Unger?
Mr. Unger. Lawyer.
Mr. Cohn. You practice in New York?
Mr. Unger. I do.
Mr. Cohn. You are admitted to the bar in New York?
Mr. Unger. I am admitted to the bar in New York.
Mr. Cohn. And to the federal court?
Mr. Unger. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Have you practiced before any government
agencies?
Mr. Unger. Do I practice? Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Which one?
Mr. Unger. Immigration. I don't recall that I practiced
before any other at this time--workmen's compensation,
perhaps--one being federal, one being state.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Unger, we have had testimony here that a man
by the name of Joel Remes, also known as Julius Reiss, has
worked under your supervision; is that true?
Mr. Unger. It is not.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Joel Remes?
Mr. Unger. If it is the person referred to in the press, in
the newspaper yesterday, I assume it is the same person who is
identified as Mr. Reiss----
Mr. Cohn. That's right.
Mr. Unger. I know who he is, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever met him?
Mr. Unger. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Under what circumstances?
Mr. Unger. He has come to our office, consulted with us. He
has also done some research work in or about or out of the
office of a perfectly innocent nature, such as of a kind that I
would consider not even important enough to remember, the sort
of thing that anyone--that you might do, that you might come to
the office and ask to look at a file--rather at a record on
appeal, or a case, and I would show it to you, and I wouldn't
even remember whether you had been there or not.
Mr. Cohn. I don't quite understand that. Was he in your
employ?
Mr. Unger. He was not. I have answered that question
already.
Mr. Cohn. I don't quite understand the situation as you
give it to me.
Mr. Unger. I said to you he came to my office to consult
with us on occasion.
Mr. Cohn. About what?
Mr. Unger. As a client.
Mr. Cohn. As a client?
Mr. Unger. I have no recollection what matter it was.
Again, it was of no significance, absolutely of no
significance.
Mr. Cohn. You say he came to your office to consult with
you on an attorney-client basis concerning a legal matter; is
that right?
Mr. Unger. That's right.
Mr. Cohn. Concerning how many legal matters did he consult
with you?
Mr. Unger. I have no recollection.
Mr. Cohn. Pardon me?
Mr. Unger. I have no recollection.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever work for you?
Mr. Unger. He did not.
Mr. Cohn. He did not work for you in any respect?
Mr. Unger. I answered that.
Mr. Cohn. I know you answered it, but how does that square
with the fact he told us that he has reported income received
from your law firm for the year of 1950?
Mr. Unger. I say he did not work for me. I have never--I
never recall employing him. If he worked for our office he
certainly wasn't working there with my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. Well, would you have knowledge of someone working
in your office? Do you know which people are employed by your
office?
Mr. Unger. No. The fact might be--well, what might be the
case is that in some matter that he was working on, not under
my supervision, he may have been on the payroll in the office
for the purpose of a case, possibly, I wouldn't know.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know that?
Mr. Unger. No, I wouldn't know.
Mr. Cohn. Will you check that for us?
Mr. Unger. I probably can.
Mr. Cohn. All right.
Mr. Unger. Probably can.
Mr. Cohn. That is as to the year 1950, particularly. As far
as your testimony, as far as you know, he retained your office,
he consulted your office as a client, in a legal matter, the
nature of which you didn't recall at all?
Mr. Unger. That's right. It is of no significance. And
beyond that, he has been to the office, I am sure that goes
back a number of years, in the course of doing some research
work of a nature that didn't concern me.
Mr. Cohn. What do you mean by research work?
Mr. Unger. He might have looked at a file in the office--
that is to say, a case on appeal, a record.
Mr. Cohn. Did he----
Mr. Unger. I don't know. What specific one? I haven't the
faintest idea.
Mr. Cohn. That is pure conjecture on your part, as to
whether he did or not?
Mr. Unger. As to whether he did, it is not conjecture; it
isn't actually knowledge in the sense that I actually saw him
sit down and do it, but I know that he was a person who was
doing research work.
Mr. Cohn. You have no idea as to the nature of the work?
Mr. Unger. No, it was of no importance to me. It was
insignificant.
Mr. Cohn. Did it have anything to do with the preparation
of the defense of any persons indicted under the Smith Act?
Mr. Unger. It may have.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know whether or not it did, Mr. Unger?
Mr. Unger. I don't.
Mr. Cohn. You have no knowledge?
Mr. Unger. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you do any such work?
Mr Unger. Did I do any such----
Mr Cohn. Did you do any such work concerning the
preparation of the defense of persons indicted under the Smith
Act?
Mr. Unger. I think that is irrelevant to the subject of
inquiry. That has to do with the question of attorney-client
relationships, which obviously are not something which you
should inquire into.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, your testimony is whether or not
you did any work of that nature is a confidential communication
from a client to you; is that right?
Mr. Unger. That's right.
Mr. Cohn. Is that your testimony?
Mr. Unger. Yes, of course. It is self-evident, Mr. Cohn.
Mr. Cohn. Well, let us not argue. Just try to answer the
questions.
Mr. Unger. I have.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him by the name of Remes or Reiss?
Mr. Unger. Actually, I don't think I ever heard the name
Remes, only Reiss.
Mr. Cohn. Then it was the name Reiss?
Mr. Unger. Reiss.
Mr. Cohn. All right. Now, is Mr. Reiss, to your knowledge,
a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Unger. On that subject, I would say to you I object to
the question on the grounds of principle. I think, for one, on
the basis of what you have already represented