[Senate Hearing 110-334] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 110-334 THE FOUNDING FATHERS' PAPERS: ENSURING PUBLIC ACCESS TO OUR NATIONAL TREASURES ======================================================================= HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION __________ FEBRUARY 7, 2008 __________ Serial No. J-110-72 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 41-482 PDF WASHINGTON DC: 2008 --------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866)512-1800 DC area (202)512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2250 Mail Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont, Chairman EDWARD M. KENNEDY, Massachusetts ARLEN SPECTER, Pennsylvania JOSEPH R. BIDEN, Jr., Delaware ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah HERB KOHL, Wisconsin CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California JON KYL, Arizona RUSSELL D. FEINGOLD, Wisconsin JEFF SESSIONS, Alabama CHARLES E. SCHUMER, New York LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois JOHN CORNYN, Texas BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, Maryland SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island TOM COBURN, Oklahoma Bruce A. Cohen, Chief Counsel and Staff Director Stephanie A. Middleton, Republican Staff Director Nicholas A. Rossi, Republican Chief Counsel C O N T E N T S ---------- STATEMENTS OF COMMITTEE MEMBERS Page Cardin, Hon. Benjamin L., a U.S. Senator from the State of Maryland....................................................... 21 Kennedy, Hon. Edward M., a U.S. Senator from the State of Massachusetts.................................................. 2 Leahy, Hon. Patrick J., a U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont. 1 prepared statement........................................... 121 Specter, Hon. Arlen, a U.S. Senator from the State of Pennsylvania, prepared statement............................... 142 WITNESSES Katz, Stanley N., Chairman, Papers of the Founding Fathers, Professor, Woodrow Wilson School of Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey.......................................... 12 Ketcham, Ralph, Professor of History Emeritus, Maxwell School of Syracuse University, Syracuse, New York........................ 14 Marcum, Deanna B., Associate Librarian of Library Services, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C........................... 8 McCullough, David G., Presidential Historian and Author, Camden, Maine.......................................................... 4 Rimel, Rebecca W., President and Chief Executive Officer, The Pew Charitable Trusts, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.................. 10 Weinstein, Allen, Archivist of the United States, Washington, D.C............................................................ 6 QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS Responses of Stanley N. Katz to questions submitted by Senator Specter........................................................ 28 Responses of Deanna B. Marcum to questions submitted by Senator Specter........................................................ 37 Responses of Allen Weinstein to questions submitted by Senator Specter........................................................ 41 SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD Doyle-Wilch, Barbara, Dean of Library and Information Services, Middlebury College, President, Vermont Library Association, Middlebury, Vermont, letter.................................... 43 Graffagnino, J. Kevin, Executive Director, Vermont Historical Society, Montpelier, Vermont, letter........................... 44 Jordan, Daniel P., President, Thomas Jefferson Foundation, Inc., Charlottesville, Virginia, letter and statement................ 46 Katz, Stanley N., Chairman, Papers of the Founding Fathers, Professor, Woodrow Wilson School of Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey, statement............................... 49 Ketcham, Ralph, Professor of History Emeritus, Maxwell School of Syracuse University, Syracuse, New York, statement............. 116 Marcum, Deanna B., Associate Librarian of Library Services, Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., statement............... 123 McCullough, David G., Presidential Historian and Author, Camden, Maine, statement............................................... 125 Moe, Richard, President, National Trust for Historic Preservation, Washington, D.C., letter......................... 128 Morgan, Edmund S., Sterling Professor of History emeritus, Yale University, letter............................................. 130 Philadelphia Inquirer, Edward Colimore, article.................. 132 Rimel, Rebecca W., President and Chief Executive Officer, The Pew Charitable Trusts, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, statement....... 136 Roll Call, February 6, 2008, article............................. 140 Washington Post, December 15, 2007, article...................... 144 Weinstein, Allen, Archivist of the United States, Washington, D.C., statement................................................ 147 Wilentz, Sean, Sidney and Ruth Lapidus Professor in the American Revolutionary Era and Professor of History, Princeton University, Princeton, New Jersey, letter...................... 154 Wood, Gordon S., Alva O. Way University Professor and Professor of History, Brown University, Providence, Rhode Island, letter. 157 THE FOUNDING FATHERS' PAPERS: ENSURING PUBLIC ACCESS TO OUR NATIONAL TREASURES ---------- THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 7, 2008 U.S. Senate, Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, DC The Committee met, Pursuant to notice, at 10:09 a.m., in room SD-226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Patrick J. Leahy, Chairman of the Committee, presiding. Present: Senators Kennedy, Cardin, and Whitehouse. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. PATRICK J. LEAHY, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF VERMONT Chairman Leahy. You know, every so often you get to--around here we have committee meetings on horrible crimes, we have committee meetings on wars, we have committee meetings on contentious issues. David, we have a place for you right there in the front. Then every so often, we actually have something that's fascinating. Senator Kennedy. And important. Chairman Leahy. And important. It is an important hearing, as Senator Kennedy says, on improving public access to the papers of our Nation's Founding Fathers. Last this month we will celebrate the 276th birthday of our first President, George Washington. Very few of us were here in the Senate at that time. [Laughter.] There is much to be learned from our Founders and our shared national history. We will work with the Reporter to clear up that little bit of the transcript. [Laughter.] But my father was a printer in Vermont, a self-taught historian. I was steeped from childhood in a deep appreciation in the First Amendment and the power of the written word, and the value and the vitality of our Nation's rich history to us, and to each future generation of Americans. So, today it is especially good that we have this distinguished panel of historians, scholars, and government officials. The works of our Founding Fathers are a part of the identity and heritage of every single American. We should do everything possible to make these papers available, accessible, and affordable to the American people, especially at a time when many of us are concerned that not enough Americans know enough about the history of our country, all of it, the good, the bad, everything else. More than a half century ago, we undertook the important task of making the correspondence and diaries and other writings of the six Founding Fathers--George Washington, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Alexander Hamilton--available to the American people. But a lot of this remains largely incomplete and inaccessible to most Americans today. They commonly referred to ``letter press'' projects operated at major universities and other institutions around the country. Although the first volumes of the papers were published in the 1950's, only the papers of Alexander Hamilton have been completed. According to the National Historic Publication and Records Commission NHPRC, the papers of Thomas Jefferson will not be completed until 2025, the Washington papers in 2023, the papers of Franklin and Madison in 2030, and the Adams papers in 2050. That is 100 years after the projects began. We spent nearly $30 million in taxpayer dollars in Federal taxpayer projects, and it is estimated another $60 million in combined public and private money going in here. One volume of the Hamilton papers costs $180. The price for the complete 26- volume set of the papers is around $2,600. So I think only a few libraries had one volume of the papers, and only 6 percent had more than one volume. So I'm trying to find out how best to get this out to everybody. I'm a long-time advocate for Internet use. I think the Web can help a great deal, but we've got to have better online access. I know a lot of Americans have gained insights and developed important connections to our national heritage by simply viewing the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and Bill of Rights on display at the National Archives. I remember, as a teenager, going there with my parents and how thrilled I was. So with these distinguished historians I am almost afraid to say this next line, so I will say this was written by my staff, who give me too much credit. But if Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton, and Franklin could get into this discussion, I almost imagine them saying, what are we waiting for? When he was asked recently about the troubling lack of access to the Founding Fathers' papers, the Presidential historian and author David McCullough, who is here, said that ``These volumes of the Founders are more of a monument than anything built in stone. I don't want people to wait for another 50 years.'' Mr. McCullough, I agree with your sense of urgency. So we will hear from this distinguished panel and see where we might go. [The prepared statement of Senator Leahy appears as a submission for the record.] Senator Kennedy, did you want to-- STATEMENT OF HON. EDWARD M. KENNEDY, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MASSACHUSETTS Senator Kennedy. Well, just very briefly. I want to thank you. I thank Senator Leahy for holding this hearing and join him saying that it's a matter of enormous importance and consequence, and in welcoming a very distinguished panel this morning. I think all of us understand that the preservation and publication of the papers of our Founders is a matter of enormous importance to historians and the general public alike. These documents offer unique witness to our history and a unique window through which to examine how our country came to be what it is today. As many have remarked, these documents are ``American scripture.'' I want to say that it is a privilege to have Dave McCullough with us today, one of the Nation's most respected historians, whose works have been some of our most widely read books. He has brought to light many of the extraordinary leaders and historic events in our national heritage, and I thank him for sharing his talents with all of us. It is a privilege to welcome Stanley Katz, a distinguished leader in the academic community. He has been a source of wise counsel to many of us over the years. He is chairman of the Papers of the Founding Fathers, and has a major role in guiding and fostering the scholarship on this subject. I also welcome Allen Weinstein, who is doing such an impressive job at the National Archives in overseeing the release of Presidential papers, the administration of the Presidential library, and many other important tasks. I particularly appreciate all he has done to keep a copy of the Magna Carta on display at the Archives. When it came up for sale not long ago, David Rubenstein purchased it and made a donation of the only copy of this historic document here in the United States, and all of us are grateful to Dr. Weinstein and Mr. Rubenstein for ensuring that to future generations will be able to view the historic document. The Founding Fathers Project, established half a century ago, continues to be an important national mission. When completed, it will be an extraordinary resource for research for all of us who cherish our national history. As Mr. McCullough has said, the final product will be ``a monument that will last longer than any of the monuments that we now have.'' These documents are national treasures. Recently, my wife Vicki and I participated in an event sponsored by the Adams Papers. Governor Deval Patrick, his wife Diane, and former Governor Dukakis joined us in Faneuil Hall, one of the monuments of our early democracy, to read the letters of John and Abigail Adams. The event absolutely packed Faneuil Hall, the interest of the citizens in this small little item of American history was just overwhelming. It was a special night, and I'm grateful that the Adams Papers sponsored such an occasion to share the words, the affection, and the vision of this remarkable couple who made such a contribution to the creation of America. It's an example of the type of outreach that the Founding Fathers Project can make possible in the years ahead. So, I look forward to hearing from our distinguished witnesses to learn more about the project. By all accounts, the scholarship produced by the project has been extraordinary. Nonetheless, there are concerns about the pace of the publications and about making sure they reach the widest possible audience. We in Congress need to do all we can to help. We know future generations of Americans will be immensely grateful for our effort. So, thank you all for coming. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Leahy. Thank you, Senator Kennedy. I'm always nervous when I start one of these things, having Senator Kennedy, who was chairman of this committee long before I was and is far more experienced here. But I'm not going to do my usual thing. We usually swear witnesses in. This is not necessary, and by consent we'll waive that for this panel, of course. Our first witness will be Dave McCullough, a well-respected Presidential historian and author, recipient of numerous awards, including twice winning the Pulitzer Price, twice winning the National Book Award, and the Presidential Medal of Freedom. In 1989, Mr. McCullough, I remember very well when you were one of the few private citizens to address a joint meeting of Congress. You graduated from Yale University with honors in English literature. On a personal note, he was one of the people we all relied on, those of us who were here at the time of the Panama Canal debate. I was saying to several out back that in that debate, before we had TV in the Senate, virtually every desk had a copy of your book, those who were opposed to the treaty and those who were for it, because it was the one thing we could go to that everybody agreed on the facts that were there. We would then interpret those facts as we wanted, of course. So, Mr. McCullough, it's all yours. STATEMENT OF DAVID G. MCCULLOUGH, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR, CAMDEN, MAINE Mr. McCullough. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you very much for the chance, the privilege, to speak before this committee in support of the Founding Fathers Project. What has been achieved thus far with a publication of the papers of the Founders is all of an exceedingly high order. I want to attest to that emphatically as one of the many--the countless numbers--of historians, biographers, scholars, and students who have drawn again and again on the great wealth of material to be found in these incomparable volumes. Their value is unassailable, immeasurable. They are superbly edited. They are thorough. They are accurate. The footnotes alone are pure gold; many are masterpieces of close scholarship. Over the past 20 years and more, I have worked with, depended in particular, on the volumes of Washington, Adams and Jefferson papers. I could not have written my last two books, John Adams and 1776 without them. I know how essential the papers are to our understanding of those great Americans and of their time. Just this past week for my current project, I wanted to find out what all was contained in the 80-some crates that Thomas Jefferson shipped back home to Virginia in the course of his 5 years of diplomatic service in France, all the books, art, and artifacts, the scientific instruments and the like. The range and variety of inventory would, of course, reflect much about the mind of the man. So I turned to the Jefferson papers hoping there might be something, and sure enough, there it was, volume 18, the whole sum total in a footnote that runs nearly six pages in small type. I know what work had to have gone into that footnote, the care and the attention to detail. There have been times when I spent a whole day on one paragraph just trying to get it right, to be clear and accurate, so I know. The men and women who have devoted themselves to the publication of the papers are not skilled editors only, they are dedicated scholars. Their standards are the very highest. Their knowledge of their subject often surpasses that of anyone. I have worked with them. I know them. I count them as friends. Several in particular have guided and helped me in ways for which I am everlastingly grateful. They are the best in the business and the high quality of the work they do need not, must not, be jeopardized or vitiated in order to speed up the rate of production. There really should be no argument about that. As you know, publication of the papers began with volume one of the Jefferson papers in 1950 when Harry Truman was President. With this in mind, and given the opportunities we have, I would like to offer an analogy from that distant time of the cold war. The Russians had sealed off Berlin and the urgent question was what to do about it. A massive airlift was proposed, but it was calculated that given the number of planes available and the volume of cargo each plane could carry and the number of landings that could be made per day given the number of airfields available, supplying the daily needs of food and fuel for a city of 2.5 million people would be impossible, so somebody suggested building another airfield. We need to build another airfield. We need to double the investment in the project. Double each staff, and thereby pick up the pace with no change in quality. We know it will work and we know it will work effectively because it is already working with the post-Presidential papers of Jefferson's being edited at Montecello, and the Adams papers being edited at the Massachusetts Historical Society in Boston. And what worthy work it is. Imagine, of all Jefferson's post-Presidential papers, thus far less than a third have ever appeared in print. Think of the discoveries, the insights still to come. The value of the Founding Fathers' papers goes far beyond their scholarly importance, immense as that is. As Daniel Jordan of Montecello has said, ``The papers are American scripture. They are our political faith. The free and open exchange of ideas, often brilliant expressions of some of the most fertile minds, the greatest statesmen and patriots in our entire history. No one body of private and public correspondence, official papers, and pronouncements tell us more about that founding time or more about who we are and what we hold dear. The papers of the Founding Fathers are an ultimate national treasure and their importance to the American people, especially in such times as these, could not be greater.'' Mr. Chairman, you can tell a lot about a society by how it spends its money. Here is our chance, and it is long overdue, to show what we care about, what we value, and what we are willing and proud to pay for. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. McCullough appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Leahy. Thank you. You may hear that last line quoted again when I am wearing my other hat as a member of the Appropriations Committee. I happen to agree very much with you. Dr. Allen Weinstein is confirmed as the ninth Archivist. For those with a little bit of history, the Archivist actually has to be confirmed like a Supreme Court Justice. Some would say sometimes the Archivist is every bit as important, if not more so. He was confirmed as the ninth Archivist of the United States in February of 2005. Prior to his time at the National Archives and Records Administration, he was a professor of history and held positions in Boston University, my alma mater, Georgetown University, and Smith College. He is the author of numerous essays and books. He is past winner of the prestigious United Nations Peace Medal for efforts to promote peace, dialogue, and free elections in critical parts of the world. Doctor, please go ahead. STATEMENT OF ALLEN WEINSTEIN, ARCHIVIST OF THE UNITED STATES, WASHINGTON, D.C. Mr. Weinstein. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, Senator Kennedy, members of the committee, I want to thank you for having invited me to testify on this important issue, one which has been of keen interest to me throughout my almost half century as an historian, and most intensely during the past 3 years as Archivist of the United States. I must interject also, it is an enormous privilege for me to sit in this panel with so many of my colleagues, people I have worked with in other ways, and especially with the extraordinary David McCullough. Thank you for all your work, David. Let me begin with a few facts. Unlike the practice of preserving and making available to the public the papers of each President of the United States beginning with Franklin Roosevelt, there was no policy in place in the 18th century to archive the papers of the Founders of the Nation. If collected at all, documents were either scattered in diverse repositories, public and private, or held within Federal institutions, often very informally. Responding to many of the same concerns that led to the creation of the National Archives in the 1930s, historians and scholars had long urged the creation of a Federal entity to collect historical materials related to the three branches of national government and to publish specifically the important papers of our Presidents in order to make them more widely available to all citizens. In 1934, a Federal entity, the National Historical Publications Commission, NHPC, was created within the National Archives to address this mission. Although not initially funded as a grant-making agency, the Commission called for publication of comprehensive documentary editions of the papers of the key Founders, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Adams, and James Madison, as well as a documentary history of the ratification of the Constitution. Encouraged by historians, work began on a comprehensive edition of the papers of Thomas Jefferson. Its first volume was completed in 1950 and presented to President Truman, who, impressed by the project's scope, became a strong supporter of the NHPC's work on the Founders. Subsequently, in 1964, the Commission began awarding grants for these projects. The documentary editions collect, transcribe, and annotate the materials written and received by these key American statesmen. In the early years, much time and effort was spent locating and assembling thousands of documents and deciphering 18th century handwriting. The National Historical Publications & Records Commission, NHPRC, a name change in 1974, has funded this process for the past 44 years. It has provided over $18 million in awards to six Founding Fathers documentary editing projects, resulting in the publication of 216 volumes to date. The volumes have been praised for their careful work, scholarship, and detailed annotation. At the same time, however, many Americans have been frustrated by the slow pace of production and would like to have earlier access to these papers in their entirety. For example, the Adams Papers project, begun in 1954, does not anticipate completion until 2049. This important work must be completed at an accelerated pace and we must find ways to partner with others outside the Federal Government in new and creative ways to reach this goal and to achieve the most cost- effective solutions. With the advent of the Internet, online versions of the documentary editions are both possible and desirable, Mr. Chairman. Without sacrificing work on the scholarly editions, the National Archives' NHPRC hopes to develop a plan to produce online editions of all major published and unpublished collections of the Founders' papers at the earliest possible moment. Achievement of this goal will require cooperation among all of the scholars and university presses involved, as well as steady support from the Congress on a time table geared to early completion of the online editions. Some projects have already begun to work toward this goal. For example, the project to publish the papers of Benjamin Franklin has made available online the complete collection of its printed volumes, as well as unpublished transcripts of Franklin's papers. The online materials are freely available to the public. To achieve the timely online editions of the papers of the Founders, NHPRC would need to negotiate an agreement with the project sponsors to release and post online unannotated transcripts of the raw materials for future printed volumes. The presses and projects have a longstanding financial interest in these collections, as well as a commitment to ensure thorough scholarship. At the same time, scholarly presses have at the core of their mission open access to knowledge. Critical and crucial to open access is that a clear and effective plan be created for speeding projects along. Our goal should be to achieve a balanced approach which ensures that the public has the earliest possible access to online editions of the collected papers of the Founders, and at the same time that scholars commit to complete their work in a timely fashion. I will be responding within the next month or so, Mr. Chairman, to the language in the recently passed appropriations bill directing me, ``as chairman of the NHPRC to develop and submit a comprehensive plan for online electronic publication of the papers of the Founding Fathers within a reasonable timeframe.'' Only the closest cooperation among the main actors in this process, the National Archives' NHPRC, the documentary editors, and our congressional supporters, only that kind of cooperation will produce the desired outcome: timely and cost-effective online editions of the Founders' writings and the finest scholarly editions possible in our lifetime. This hearing, Mr. Chairman, is an important step toward fulfilling these goals and we thank you for holding it. This concludes my brief prepared statement. I'm happy to try and answer any questions. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Weinstein appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Leahy. Thank you very much. When we talk about the need for cooperation--we'll go back to this after--I don't think any of us underestimate the importance of that. I'm well aware in some of these papers you're dealing with second, third, or fourth copies. If you're going to put these papers out there, you have the most accurate version possible. Dr. Deanna Marcum became the Associate Librarian for Library Services in August of 2003. Am I correct on that? Ms. Marcum. Yes. Chairman Leahy. She is responsible for integrating the emerging digital resources into the traditional library efforts, to build a digital library for the 21st century. From 1995 to 2003, Dr. Marcum served as the president of the Council on Library Resources, and obviously one who is concerned with what is happening here. Dr. Marcum, please go ahead. STATEMENT OF DEANNA B. MARCUM, ASSOCIATE LIBRARIAN OF LIBRARY SERVICES, LIBRARY OF CONGRESS, WASHINGTON, DC Ms. Marcum. Mr. Chairman, members of the Committee, as the Associate Librarian of the Library of Congress, I serve as the Library's representative on the National Historical Publications & Records Commission at the National Archives. I am very pleased to see that the Judiciary Committee has taken an interest in making the papers of the Founding Fathers more accessible to the American people. Libraries across the country, and the Library of Congress in particular, are devoted to making information resources available and useful to their fellow citizens. Federal tax dollars have been used for more than 50 years to fund the scholarly editions of the Founding Fathers' papers. It seems appropriate that the results of the scholars' work be made more accessible to the American people as soon as possible. The system now in place is slow, laborious, and expensive, and unfortunately the results have not been widely accessible. The Library of Congress has been a pioneer in providing digital access to historical resources. In the early 1990s, even before the Internet was in widespread use, the Library of Congress established the American Memory Project, making our unique primary documents illuminating American history much more widely available to people everywhere. We converted historical documents to digital form and produced CD-ROMs for distribution in schools. The Internet has allowed us to make these materials much more widely available, not just to America, but to the world. Our acclaimed Web site, originally intended to provide resources for the K-12 community, has proved to be enormously useful to the educational and academic communities and to the general public. In 2007, the Library's Web site of more than 10 million digital items recorded over 5 billion individual transactions, a clear indication of our effectiveness and commitment to access. Chairman Leahy. Let me make sure I have that right. Five billion? Ms. Marcum. Billion. The Library of Congress serves as the custodial home of the Presidential papers, from George Washington to Calvin Coolidge, with the notable exception of the Adams papers. Prior to the creation of the National Archives in 1934, the library was the historical repository for such materials. To make the documents of the Founding Fathers more widely available, the Library of Congress has digitized and made accessible on our Web site all of the Presidential papers of Washington, Jefferson, and Madison as part of our American Memory Project. In 2004, the Library of Congress and the National Endowment for the Humanities began a collaborative project to digitize and make accessible millions of historical newspaper pages. The NEH is making grants to States to support the selection and digitization of their newspapers of highest interest to the public. The Library of Congress has established the technical specifications for digitizing the papers and has developed a user interface that is both reliable and easy to use. The Library has provided staff expertise and content to the project, as well as the storage and delivery mechanisms that ensure access. NEH has covered partial administrative costs to support the library's development of the system. With adequate funding, digital versions of the Founding Fathers' papers might be treated in a similar way. Working with our colleague institutions, the Library of Congress could combine digital versions of the papers in a single Web site that would provide a convenient, easy-to-use, impartial, and free venue. Our track record in this area is unparalleled. The Library of Congress's interest is in making America's history available to Americans. Our mission is to make resources available and useful to the Congress and the American people. The raw materials of our history should be instantly and freely accessible for all. The Library of Congress would be honored to play a role, assuming a combination of appropriated and private funding in providing that access. Thank you for inviting me to testify. I shall be happy to answer questions. Thank you. Chairman Leahy. Well, thank you very much, Doctor. [The prepared statement of Ms. Marcum appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Leahy. Our next witness would be Rebecca Rimel. She is president and chief executive officer of the Pew Charitable Trusts. She led Pew in promoting nonpartisan policy solutions for pressing and emerging problems affecting the American public, and there is hardly a Senator on either side of the aisle that has not referred to Pew at one time or another in debates. Prior to joining Pew, Ms. Rimel served as the Assistant Professor of the Department of Neurosurgery at the University of Virginia, making her the first nurse to hold a faculty position at the University of Virginia Hospital. Having been married to a registered nurse for 45 years, I'm always glad to see something like that. Ms. Rimel. You're fortunate. [Laughter.] Chairman Leahy. I am. Ms. Rimel received her bachelor's degree from the University of Virginia in nursing, and a master's degree from James Madison University. Please go ahead. STATEMENT OF REBECCA W. RIMEL, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, THE PEW CHARITABLE TRUSTS, PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA Ms. Rimel. Thank you, sir. I am honored and appreciative for this opportunity. Thomas Jefferson reminded us, ``It is the duty of every good citizen to use all of the opportunities that occur to him for preserving documents relating to the history of this country.'' That's why I'm so honored to join this distinguished panel today, why I'm appreciative of the Committee's interest in this critical work, and why I'm so grateful to the number of private donors, including my own board, that have invested over $7.5 million beginning in the early 1970s, to complete the scholarly work required to share our Founders' documents with the world. Others can talk more knowingly about the importance of the Founders' words, but I would offer just two additional points that show their relevance and impact. The Congressional Record indicates that the words ``Founding Fathers'' have been used more than 2,400 times on the floor of the House and the Senate during the last six Congresses. This is 240 years after the last of these great Americans passed away. Since 1984, more than 30 heads of state, including many from emerging democracies, have visited Montecello, Thomas Jefferson's home, to learn more about this leading architect of democracy. During their visits, they shared the importance of the Founders' ideas and ideals in their fight for freedom. Eight years ago, my board approved an additional $10 million challenge grant. When coupled with other private and public support, it would have greatly expedited the completion of the letter press editions of these papers and made them electronically accessible to all. The impetus for this was the slow progress after 50 years of significant public and private support. It also was because of the high costs, which you referred to in your opening remarks, to libraries and the cost per volume. The lack of a clear understanding of the use of the public and private dollars is because, to my knowledge, there has never been a full accounting of the Founding Fathers Project. There has been a lack of performance metrics. On a more positive note, my board and I share a strong commitment to share with every American what is rightfully theirs: the words of the Founding Fathers. We and our other private sector donor partners required centralized coordination, cooperation, oversight, and greater accountability, and transparency and productivity as the terms of our grant. I am disappointed to report that our goal was not realized. The failure to fully share our Founders' papers, I believe, is truly a national embarrassment. If you come to share these sentiments, I respectfully recommend three objectives for a congressional oversight plan. First, Congress should draft a plan for completion of these papers and conduct regular oversight until it is finished. The Senate Appropriations Committee has directed the Archivist to submit a plan by the end of March to make these materials available online, and I trust that these recommendations will be carefully considered. Second, we should expeditiously complete the letter press editions. The original goal of Congress more than 50 years ago is still valid today. The scholarly work is important. Sufficient funding, coupled with more accountability and efficiency, will be necessary to complete these projects in a timely manner. Finally, the published volumes should be digitized, along with the original unannotated documents, and they should be placed on a single, easily accessible Web site such as that of the Library of Congress. Access should be free, available to anyone, anywhere who can access the Internet. Mr. Adams instructed us to never think of limitations on what we might do. Let's not limit our aspirations in achieving such a noble goal, and let's please ensure that it does not take us over 100 years to make the words of our Founders accessible to all. I thank you for the courtesy of your time. Chairman Leahy. Thank you very much. I wanted you here because I knew the amount of effort and money the foundation has put into this project, and I thank you for that. [The prepared statement of Ms. Rimel appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Leahy. Dr. Stanley Katz is currently Professor at the Woodrow Wilson School at Princeton University, and serves as the Commissioner of the National Historical Publications & Records Commission. He is a member of the American Philosophical Society. He is author and editor of numerous books and articles. He served as president to the Organization of American Historians and the American Society for Legal History. He received his bachelor's degree, master's degree, and Ph.D. in English history and literature from Harvard University. Dr. Katz, please go ahead, sir. STATEMENT OF STANLEY N. KATZ, CHAIRMAN, PAPERS OF THE FOUNDING FATHERS, PROFESSOR, WOODROW WILSON SCHOOL OF PRINCETON UNIVERSITY, PRINCETON, NEW JERSEY Mr. Katz. Thank you very much, Senator Leahy and the rest of the Committee. I want to make just a couple of very brief points in this opening statement. There's an awful lot for us to talk to. I'm here as the chair of a tiny 501(c)(3) called Papers of the Founding Fathers, Inc., which was created in 1981 to assist the then-five projects in raising private funds to support the work that they were doing, mainly to relieve the editors of those projects of the burden of trying to raise funds while they were editing the papers. I want to make the point that that is all we do. We have no management responsibilities, we have no authority over the projects themselves. We do, however, try to keep in touch with all of them, and each one of the projects has a trustee on the board of FFP, Inc. The question that has been bruited in the press and by Rebecca Rimel and others is a very important one, and that is the rate of productivity of these projects. They have taken a very long time. They continue to take a very long time. We have addressed the schedule in the testimony we submitted and we can come back to that later. The basic point to be made here, I think, the one that David McCullough made very nicely, is that these are rather extraordinary works of scholarship. This is a craft skill, this is not an industrial skill. It can't be scaled up in the way that industrial skills can. We can't, to use David's expression, build a second airport. That's not going to work for these projects. We have been proceeding with all deliberate speed, and we will do our best to make it speedier, but still deliberate. I do want to point out that there have been increases, really important increases, in the rates of productivity over the last five to 7 years. I think we have now reached what I think is a sustainable rate of about a volume a year from the several projects, and I believe that ought to be our objective. Third, I want to point out that while the Federal Government has obviously been hugely important to us, and we can discuss this in detail later, the projects were originally started on private funding. Pew was among the first, and certainly the most generous, of the private funders. But in more recent years we've been supported first by NHPRC, and then since 1994, by NEH as well. So there is roughly an equal split, slightly more on the private side, between public and private funders. This is a partnership we would very much like to retain and to expand. Finally, we agree that digital access and online versions are absolutely essential. This is an objective that we have been working for for a very long time now. We contracted with the Packard Humanities Institute in 1988 to begin the digitization of the unpublished papers, and we continue to do that. The edition that David referred to of the Franklin papers that is now available freely online was done--not only funded, but done--by the Packard Humanities Institute. They continue to support us for this work and we want to continue it. Second, all of the published volumes, letter press editions, are being digitized by the University of Virginia press. Their electronic imprint is called Rotunda. Those will all be available very shortly. Third, we were approached by NEH in 2006. We have included the proposal we made to NEH to prepare an online version of the unpublished, unedited papers in our testimony. We think that is absolutely essential and we'd very much like to undertake it. But I want to point out that this is not like digitizing newspapers. You cannot run them through a machine to do them. We have to keyboard them. We have to have expert historians verify the text. It will take a bit of time, although not as long as the published editions. That is my suggestion for where we ought to be headed for fuller, freer public access. Thank you. Chairman Leahy. Am I correct, Dr. Katz, that on the digitizing, I understand the comparison of newspapers, but also the ability to do that is improving all the time, is it not? Mr. Katz. Well, we don't scan. So in other words, it is improving, indeed. The rate of error is much less than it used to be. But all of our material, or almost all of our material, is holograph material, it's handwritten material. It simply needs an expert eye to go over it. The machine can't read it satisfactorily. So, we don't believe it is possible to do that, and I don't think any comparable project uses that kind of technology. I have, by the way, brought along the most recent volume, or volumes, from each project. If somebody wants to carry them up there, I think they are very important for anybody thinking about this to look at them. [The prepared statement of Mr. Katz appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Leahy. When we break, I want to come down and take a look at a couple of those. Thank you. Mr. Katz. All right. Chairman Leahy. And Dr. Ketcham is a Professor Emeritus of History at the Maxwell School of Syracuse University, getting closer to my part of the country. Incidentally, I do not know when you came down, Dr. Ketcham, but you had a lot of snow there yesterday. Mr. Ketcham. Not like Virginia. Chairman Leahy. Dr. Ketcham currently serves on the Board of Directors of the Montpelier Foundation, which is down here in Virginia. He is working to preserve the lasting legacy of James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution and the architect of the Bill of Rights, and President of the United States. He worked as the editor of the papers of Benjamin Franklin at Yale in 1965, and is the associate editor of the papers of James Madison at the University of Chicago in 2006. He received his bachelor's at Allegheny College, and master's degree at Colgate University, a Ph.D. in American Studies from Syracuse. Dr. Ketcham, you have had a lifetime of editing these kinds of things. Please go ahead, sir. STATEMENT OF RALPH KETCHAM, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY EMERITUS, MAXWELL SCHOOL OF SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, SYRACUSE, NEW YORK Mr. Ketcham. Thank you, Senator. I'm pleased to acknowledge your work on these projects, as well as Senator Kennedy's, and the other members of this committee. The Founding Fathers Project has become the most lasting and significant effort to preserve the national heritage of the ideas and institutions upon which our political system rests. From the beginning with Franklin Roosevelt opening the Jefferson Memorial and Dr. Boyd finding at that time the energy to start the project on Jefferson, and going on ever since, the main thing about these projects is they have developed methods and benchmarks of fairness and accuracy for documentary publication that were so path-breaking, that all previous such publications were rendered inadequate and incomplete, and all subsequent publications have had to try to keep up with these standards. As the volumes have come out--over 200 by now--the projects themselves have become legendary and serve a scholarly and a public purpose. A review in the William & Mary Quarterly, recently referred to these publications as ``immense and invaluable enterprises that have already transformed the means and soundness of writing the history of the American founding.'' It's this system which all agree, I think, must be sustained if the remarkable and unique mission of the projects is to be fulfilled, as every President since Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower had emphasized. The question of the long time the projects have taken is problematic. What I'd like to address about this question is the nature of the papers themselves, which raise important questions about how the whole business can be handled. Actually, there are so many papers in the files, partly because the Founders lived such a long time. It's not surprising that Alexander Hamilton's papers are the only ones that have been completed. The chief editor of the Hamilton papers, Cy Surrett, emphasized long ago that he thought he might dedicate his volumes to Aaron Burr, who made completion of this task possible. [Laughter.] But the rest of them all lived a long time and all kept scribbling. But the projects themselves own no original documents. All their documents are in existence somewhere else. All the documents, as Stanley has emphasized, were handwritten documents, archived or held elsewhere. Or there are various kinds of other later copies, transcripts from unauthenticated sources, auction catalogues, and so on. All of these miscellaneous beginnings have to be typed up and word processed, and really can only be fully understood by carefully trained historians. These transcripts need to be proofread, and are proofread over and over again. The notes from various sources that are put into the editorial apparatus from time to time need to be carefully looked over. So when one asks, what do the files consist of, they consist of very uneven materials. There are transcripts made sometimes by not very skilled typists or word processors, notes added to the files from time to time, alternate copies of different documents. It's very undigested and the files fill shelves and shelves. So the question is, if we're going to reproduce this, electronically, what do we reproduce and with what sense of authenticity can it be brought forth? So I would suggest that the main thing we need to avoid is the interruption of the work of the ongoing editorial projects because the essential need of all concerned is to have these volumes before the public--not just the documents, but the way they're presented and the notes on them and so on are themselves a kind of historical record that David McCullough has mentioned. I think the way to speed up the whole process of getting these documents before the public is mainly, as David McCullough has also suggested, to increase the staff and funding of the projects. Also go ahead, as Stanley has suggested, on breaking the projects up so that different parts of them can be edited simultaneously, as the Jefferson project has recently done, as the Madison project has already been doing. I think this is most important for the ongoing work of the projects. So, I would urge the committee to mainly emphasize the continuation of that work, and then go ahead as much as possible with the digitalized electronic versions, too. Thank you very much. [The prepared statement of Mr. Ketcham appears as a submission for the record.] Chairman Leahy. Thank you very much, Dr. Ketcham. Let me ask a couple of questions, and certainly colleagues can feel free to jump in here anywhere. Mr. McCullough, you and I discussed some of these things and where the records are. We've talked about these matters off and on for over 30 years. This is 200 years after these papers are written, 50 years after the effort to publish them began. I realize nobody can speak and say exactly what the Founders might have thought, but from all of your studies, what do you think the Founders would have thought about the lack of access of these papers, or would they have wanted these papers to be generally accessible to people? Mr. McCullough. Well, one thing they all had in common, it seems to me, is a bedrock faith in education. Jefferson famously said, ``Any nation that expects to be ignorant and free expects what never was and never can be.'' John Adams was the author of the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, the oldest written constitution still in existence, still in use in the world today, in which there is a paragraph about the importance of education. Education depends on teachers. I feel very strongly that we are falling very far behind standards as to how we're educating our young people in American history. We are raising youngsters today, and I see them on the best college and university campuses in the country who are, by and large, historically illiterate and it's not their faults, it's our fault. If the teachers, just the teachers, were to have access to this material, ready access to the material in either some form of printed reproduction, by Internet, or however it will be, online, that would be a giant step forward. There is no reason in the world, except money, cost--let's say investment, because that is what it would be--that this can't be done, if only for the purposes of educating our children and grandchildren. Chairman Leahy. I was thinking the other day of when the President's--and I don't mean this as a partisan thing at all. But the President's spokesperson was asked by somebody about the Cuban missile crisis. She said, I'm not sure what that is, but I assumed it involved missiles in Cuba. [Laughter.] Mr. McCullough. Well, Senator, that's not an isolated situation. Chairman Leahy. No. I was a law student at Georgetown at the time. I remember, we all sat here wondering whether the world was going to end. When you did your Pulitzer Price work on President John Adams, you were actually able to review the Adams papers which are in Senator Kennedy's home State at the Massachusetts Historical Society. What was your experience like in seeking access to those papers? Mr. McCullough. Well, there was no problem about access. What was astonishing to me was the volume of material that was not in print in any form, the letters between John and Abigail Adams, for example, which number in excess of 1,000, just those two writing to each other, neither of whom was capable of writing a boring letter or a short one. [Laughter.] It was exciting to be holding those letters in one's own hands. It's a kind of tactile connection with that vanished time that can't be duplicated. But at the same time, I wondered, why are two thirds--at that point--of those letters never been in print in any form? Chairman Leahy. Dr. Weinstein, were you trying to interject? I am thinking, when I read articles about those letters I almost feel like I'm sitting in the room with two remarkable people contemporaneously, talking about the greatest events of our history. Mr. McCullough. I just want to make one quick point, further point. All these people lived in the 18th century or the early 19th century. There was no photography, no motion pictures, no voice recordings. One would think it would be very difficult to reach them, to find them as human beings, and it would be except for what they wrote. That's where we have them, on paper, in their own words, written by their own hands, in their own time. Very often those letters reveal not just the history of our country, but what kind of human beings they were and their character, and what they didn't know, what they were fearful of, what they were angry about. It's in that realm of the papers, I think, that one finds what is purely magic and they come to life. The only way we are going to reinstate a knowledge of history among our children and grandchildren is if that story comes to life. Chairman Leahy. My time has expired, but Dr. Weinstein had something he wanted to add to that. Mr. Weinstein. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. First, if I may, I'd like to welcome my old friend from the Archives, Senator Cardin, here. Everything that Mr. McCullough has said is absolutely correct about the appalling lack of knowledge of history. But there is another countervailing force that has to be taken into account. There is a huge hunger for an understanding of history out there in the American public. I think we see this in so many different ways. At the Archives, we have had a remarkable spike in our attendance. We had over a million visitors to the Archives building alone, to our new exhibits there. Where they used to come for 5 minutes to view the Declaration, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, they now stay for an hour or more as families, as youngsters, as classes. We have an educational program going. The Library of Congress has had some of the same experiences, as does every other cultural institution in Washington. At a time when art museums were supposed to be fading and passing from the scene, we did a show once with six museum directors. There is so much new museum work going on. So, I'm not quite as pessimistic, David, I think, about this as you if we approach this effectively. I think the completion, the timely completion of an online edition to these papers of the Founders is a very important step in this direction now. I'm about a year or two into the frustrations of running the National Archives--and it's been mostly excitement, not frustrations--I decided that I would like to request from the Congress that they consider changing the inscription on the front of the building that says ``The past is prologue'' to one that reads ``Show me the money''. [Laughter.] Chairman Leahy. Some of us serve on both this committee and the Appropriations Committee. Mr. Weinstein. A final point, if I may, very briefly. With all due respect to my colleagues, we have 10 billion documents thus far. I've counted them all, and they're all there. But they're all scattered around. Chairman Leahy. You don't count them every day. Mr. Weinstein. Yes, indeed. But they're among the 40 or so facilities of the National Archives. I don't think there's an argument at this table. I see consensus at this table. Different people are functioning on different aspects of this. All right. Perhaps one can't build another terminal or another airport, but one can build another terminal onto the existing airport. There are various metaphors that can be applied here. But it seems to me that it was Bill Buckley who once said he'd rather be governed by the first 100 names in the Boston telephone directory than by the faculty of Harvard College. Well, I'm not going to take a position on that issue because we just hosted at the Archives the new president of Harvard, and she's wonderful. But I will say, I would venture if I took the six people at this table and the three Senators here and we sat in a room for a day or two, we could resolve all of this and then proceed on our way and get the job done and get it done in a timely way. Thank you. Chairman Leahy. Let us hope we do. Senator Kennedy? Senator Kennedy. Well, thank you. Thank you all very much. Thank you for your recommendations. Hopefully the panelists will give us, in addition to your testimony, your best judgment about how we might proceed. Let me ask, Dr. Weinstein. Do we have all of the documents now? Do we know where they are? Are there still some that are missing? What can you tell us? Mr. Weinstein. The usual caution of an historian: there's always something missing. There's always something turning up. Just when you think--for example, one example. At the Archives, one of our young archivists was flipping through an old book of Civil War records, very well-known. All of a sudden, what turns up on the text between two pages of the book but a letter by Abraham Lincoln, which had been known before but no one had ever seen the actual letter, in which he urges swift action after Gettysburg to move on Lee's army and cut it down and end the war there. A very important letter for the history of the period. No one knew where it was, and suddenly it's there. There will always be something coming up, but I think we have enough to work on. I don't know whether my colleagues-- Senator Kennedy. Dr. Katz? Mr. Katz. One of the problems that we have, is that none of the projects, with the exception of the Adams papers, (owned by the Massachusetts Historical Society) owns any of the original documents, so from the start it's been a project of traveling around and collecting them. Many of them are in the National Archives, but many are not. The Jefferson papers come from 100 different depositories around the world, for instance. We know that for some of the projects there are systematic portions of the National Archives and other places that still need to be combed for letters, so there is still some collecting to be done. Senator Kennedy. David? Mr. McCullough. The papers that are the Massachusetts Historical Society, largely Adams papers, as large as that collection is, does not constitute everything because many letters are still held in private hands, private collections, and they come on the market every now and then. There's always the question, is this one that should be bought or does a copy of it suffice? So I think it's safe to say that the others are more knowledgeable about this than I am, but there is a copy of every known paper in the Massachusetts Historical Society collection. But it's astonishing how many papers do come to light year after year. Sometimes they're very important papers. Senator Kennedy. Well, I imagine, and I think from your books, David, there's a good deal that are missing, as from ships that were sunk. Mr. McCullough. Oh, absolutely. Senator Kennedy. Other letters that are missing. Mr. McCullough. Yes. Senator Kennedy. As well as important documents that are abroad. I think one of the stories you mentioned is Adams going to Liden, where he stayed for a period of time. Evidently, during the Revolutionary War there were French officers who drew pictures that described the battle at Yorktown that went to the French archives. Then at the time of the American Revolution, they moved those out and they had them up in Holland. There are archives up there that are directly related to some of the things that were going on. I don't know whether we ought to take a look at some of these documents that are in other parts of the world. But I am interested in that. I saw these drawings and pictures that were absolutely extraordinary when I was over there. But second, in the project, do you look at the letters of family members? Obviously the Adams's, yes. But, I mean, other members of their family, their close friends, their close advisors. Are all of those considered when you're looking at these Founding Fathers? How extensively? How far out do you go? Do you just say, well, look, for Adams, these individuals were the closest advisors to him, or for Washington when he was up at Longfellow House during the course of the American Revolution, these people were the closest to him and therefore we've got to get their papers too. What can you tell me about the outreach? Mr. Weinstein. Very important. I think that David, Stanley, and Professor Ketcham might, as practitioners working on these, have papers, collections themselves, more up-to-date information. I would say that when you get away from the collections of the Founders and you deal with all of the other collections that are being addressed by NHPRC with small grants, but very important grants, you find much keener interest--particularly as you approach the present, the 19th, 20th century, a much keener interest in collateral collections. For example, they've just published the first volume of the Eleanor Roosevelt papers, and they're absolutely fascinating. They have a great many of her friends and closest associates that are covered in them. But on the papers of the Founders, I think I'd rather defer to my colleagues. Mr. Katz. Thank you. Let me just comment very quickly on that. It's a key question, Senator Kennedy. When the modern editing began with Julian Boyd at Princeton, that was his great innovation, was to see that we had to use more than the immediate body of material created by the President himself, so he began collecting cognate documents. One of the most difficult and skilled tasks of the editors is to figure out by those standards what is relevant, so that obviously not all of the material from family members is relevant, so principles have been established. But it requires an incredible amount of time to make those kinds of judgments, but that is the principle of the modern editions. Mr. McCullough. I'd like to just, if I may, I'm a user, I'm a customer. I go to these volumes as someone who needs them, and I can't speak necessarily for how they are done or what the ground rules are. But an enormous part of the value of the papers is that they do include someone who is writing to that President or that person before or after they were President that you may never have heard of, but it's an interesting letter and an important letter, and the response may be very interesting or important. They identify who that person is, because very often it's someone who've never heard of or seems to be obscure. You can't look him or her up in any way. That's their huge value. Now, with the Adams's papers, the personal papers are being published at the same time in a separate set of volumes, so that there are two projects going forth, as well as the John Quincy Adams papers, which is something else. To give you an idea of how great is the volume of that collection, they are on microfilm. This is for the whole family down through Charles Francis Adams, Henry Adams, and so forth. If that microfilm were stretched out, it would be more than five miles long. That's how much material there is. That quantity has to always be taken into consideration when appraising the size, scope, timetable of the project. Senator Kennedy. Just very quickly, a question, then a very quick comment. Can you tell us, Dr. Katz, are there some interesting things that have developed in this project that perhaps we might not have been aware of previously? What can you tell us? Maybe Dave McCullough as well as the other historian? I mean, what can you tell us about whether there are some hidden treasures in these documents? Mr. Ketcham. May I answer, Senator? Senator Kennedy. Yes. Mr. Ketcham. I think this emphasizes the very miscellaneous nature of the documents in these projects and the different degree to which, already, they are available either on microfilm or electronically. I was just using, recently, the Library of Congress American Memory reproduction of the papers of James Madison, and it is a wonderful resource. Also, the University of Virginia internet publication of the printed volumes is helpful and important. There's a lot there, but it's very miscellaneous. It has always been seen that way, ever since Dr. Boyd established the very broad notion of what Jefferson's papers were, letters to him, even some letters about him, responses. All of these get put in miscellaneously over the years as editors come across them, as other scholars let the editors know about papers and so on. So the stuff that's in the files is very miscellaneous. I think there are some, often, wonderful nuggets. Ellen Cohen is here, the editor of the Franklin papers. I guess you recently found on the back of some document information about when Franklin first arrived in Philadelphia, or something like that, which wouldn't have been understood unless a very skilled editor was looking at the document, looked at the back of it. I think actually it's these nuggets and these insights which come from a deep understanding of the documents which are really most important. I think we ought not to hold up the publication like these volumes. I think if that could be sustained, and maybe even speeded up along with electronic publication. It would not distract the work and the money going into these volumes in order to do an online version. They have to go on together. Senator Kennedy. Just a final comment on what Dave McCullough talked about, about the teachers, about learning, and about history. We are trying to do our best to get the Princeton standardized test to put history back on, civics back on. If we can do that, then the schools will once again start teaching about this. It's something that I know you're all very passionate about. For someone who serves on the Education Committee, I can see that we really have fallen so far behind. What Allen has said about the thirst of the American people for all of this information is true, and the link is somewhere here in getting the legislation and funding on it. We will certainly do what we can. Thank you again. Chairman Leahy. Thank you. Senator Cardin is here and has taken a strong interest in this subject, both as a member of the other body and now here. Thank you for joining us. STATEMENT OF HON. BENJAMIN L. CARDIN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF MARYLAND Senator Cardin. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I really want to thank you for holding this hearing. It's a real pleasure to listen to these experts. I'm somewhat humbled when I try to figure out what question to ask, but let me, first, thank you for all of your work and give you a couple of personal stories. The day before I was sworn in to the Senate, I decided to do something that Senator Kennedy has done with his family. Senator Kennedy takes his family to historically important sites on a regular basis, so I decided to copy that idea and took my family to the National Archives the day before I got sworn in. We spent a very enjoyable time there, and Dr. Weinstein was very generous with making it available. But the story is, I have two 12-year-old nephews who were there, and to this day they talk about that experience. They do not talk about what happened the following day when I got sworn in, but they do talk about that experience with the National Archives. [Laughter.] And they challenge themselves on history and have gotten very interested in the history of our Nation, which I think underscores the importance that if information is more available, if our educators are more informed, that there is a desire out there to learn more about the history of our Nation, understanding its importance for our future. The second story is that this past weekend, Friday, the Democratic members of the Senate met in Mt. Vernon and it was a very important, I think, meeting for us. We had experts who shared their views on many subjects. But to me, the highlight was really lunch, where we had an expert talk about Washington. I learned a lot more. It helped me to understand that the Hamilton-Jefferson debates are relevant to us today on the issue that's on the floor today, the FISA legislation and the power of the President. So we learn a lot and it is very important to us, and I thank you for trying to make this more available. The third story I want to tell, which leads to my question, is that when I was in the State legislature I was Speaker of our House, and I decided to take on a project, which was the publication of the Carroll papers. The Carroll papers are very important to the history of Maryland, thousands of letters that were written that were not available. I supported that project for, I guess, around a decade in order to get it done. It took a long time. Once I left the legislature and became a Congressman, the interest was no longer there and the funding. I tried to keep it going. I did for a while. But it was difficult, without being there, to keep it going. So I guess my question to you is, this project which I believe is so important to our country but does not have the continuing interest often by the government itself, when so many other areas are garnering attention. We don't have as many hearings. We don't have hearings on this subject as we do on national security, homeland security, and all the other issues that we have to deal with. What can we do as a Congress to try to provide the staying power so that our Nation continues this project? Because it's going to take a long time. We'll never complete it, but it's going to take a long time. What can we do to try to institutionalize the work that you are doing so that it is available to our country and to future generations? Mr. Weinstein. The four most dangerous words in the English language in this town, Senator: I will be brief. Let me try to be brief. You are asking the question, the medium is the message. You are here. You're not at some other hearing. You're spending this time, as Senator Kennedy is, concerning yourself with how one can project this issue in an effective way. You mentioned the tour you took with your family. I wish I could have 20 members every day and spend a couple of hours and talk about the issues of running an archive, running the National Archives, because that's where you get engaged and they get engaged in this process. Some people have had the blessings of family interest, like Senator Kennedy. Some have had the blessings of a lifetime's worth of interest, like the Chairman, and many who are not here. But, for example, Senator Carper, one of your colleagues, took all the new members of the Senate on an evening in which they just toured, had some dinner, we talked about some of the issues, what was there, what wasn't there. And not just the Archives. Go to the Library of Congress. Go to Mt. Vernon. Go to anyplace where one can engage, and not just in the 17th and 18th centuries. We are seriously considering putting some things in that will clarify or get to many of the 19th or 20th century issues. These are the kinds of things, the constant attention. And it doesn't have to be anything dramatic. It can be an hour in the morning, a reception, a dinner. It also, frankly, has this kind of engagement in the history of our community and this institution, the institution of the Congress, that has enormous side effects, side benefits in terms of restoring the dialog between Senators, members of the House, the other body, and the American public. It is amazing how many people, how many parents come up to me in the Archives and want to talk about their appreciation for the ability to go into this. So it's not a mystery, it's not brain surgery. It's just constant attention. Mr. Katz. Senator Cardin, can I be pointed in my response? There are two agencies that support the historical editing effort. They've been wonderful, both of them. The first, was NHPRC, which is part of NARA, the National Archives, and the other is the National Endowment for the Humanities, and they've both been supporting this effort for a long time, NHPRC since its beginning and NEH since 1993. But those of us in the community are constantly struggling to support Allen and Bruce Cole, and it's not easy. This year, again, the White House has zeroed NHPRC out of the budget, so we'll be back to those of you on the Appropriations Committee to suggest that you reinsert it in the budget. NEH also always needs more for this portion of its budget. But, of course, the Founding Fathers competes with other interests that both agencies have, and we do understand that, but the steady flow of money for this has been a struggle. Let me say, for the community on the whole, we've been very pleased with what we've gotten. The Congress has been actually quite good to us. Senator Cardin. Let me just make a comment. I get a lot of requests in my office for people to visit the White House, and I can understand the importance of visiting the White House. We cannot accommodate all those requests, so I freely suggest to visit the National Archives and Library of Congress, and many of my constituents have taken me up on that and none have ever regretted those visits. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. McCullough. May I just answer your question? I would suggest that you and some of your colleagues make a trip to Charlottesville and go and see what is being done with the Jefferson post-Presidential papers at Montecello, and how they have increased the volume-per-year production without any jeopardizing of the quality of the project, and how that system may be the solution to the problem. I would urge you to talk to Dan Jordan and others who are working there. It's been done. It's been proven to work. It's a superb, hopeful sign that we ought to know more about. And may I also suggest that you, if not in any formal, official way, but in your own response to this subject and to the solution to the problem of time, get to know more about what Rebecca Rimel has done, what the Pew Foundation has done, not just with the millions of dollars they've contributed, but with the ideas, the commitment, and the faith. Those of us who care about this care about this because I think we care about our country. That's certainly true of Rebecca and those that she works with at the Pew Foundation. Chairman Leahy. Thank you. I introduced some of you to Colleen Mason, who has been doing archival work in my office. The more I listen to this, the more I think of things we could do. Going down to see the Jefferson papers, that is something that is relatively easy for us to get a group together and go down. Dr. Marcum, I tell Vermonters, I do similar things to what Senator Cardin does. Of course, he lives right next door. That means, what is the population of Maryland? Senator Cardin. Over 5 million. Maybe 6 million. Chairman Leahy. They're available to drive down here at any time and expect to see them, and except to do these things. Vermont has only 660,000 people. What I enjoy, is when we have a President Inaugural, somebody in my office told me they'd been receiving these requests from all those who graduated from high school with me for tickets, and we were up to about 250. I said, there were 29 people in my high school class. [Laughter.] But I'm delighted by their interest. I suggest they go over to the Library of Congress and see the plaque where Justin Morrill is memorialized from Vermont, and gave the money to help build the building. He was the third-longest serving Senator in Vermont's history. So, I do that. But there are so many of these places you don't think of. This is my last question. I'm going to be writing to each of you. I have other questions. But suppose you're in a small rural State like mine. I mean, there is an advantage for Senator Cardin's constituents. They can just drive down. But suppose you're in a small rural State like mine. Suppose you're a high school teacher in a class of 29. I don't know if we have any high school classes that size. But you want to gain access to the Washington papers to prepare a history lesson. The executive director of the Vermont Historical Society told me the full sets of the volumes are available at most of the larger academic libraries, but not all Americans can easily travel to use the books. I will put that letter in the record. But what do you do in a case like this? And to add to it, a number of our smaller schools in a rural area like that are doing more, using telecommunications, a teacher in one classroom and probably three schools. How do they do this and bring it alive? Nobody is going to learn history if you just simply say, memorize these 28 dates. Who is going to do that? But if you could bring it alive and say, look, this is what they wrote, how do you do it? Mr. Katz. Can I respond? And I think Ralph wants to respond, too. Chairman Leahy. Sure. Mr. Katz. This is key. In the work that I do in training of history teachers and working with history teachers--Ralph does the same sort of thing, the great emphasis over the last 30 years has been teaching American history from documents. That is what we are training school teachers to do now. It's been, I think, extremely effective to be able to train teachers properly and continue that teaching. NEH has been very good at assisting us in that. Getting access to the documents normally, frankly, comes through printed books of documents because that turns out to be cheaper and easier to use. You can put it in the kids' hands. Because not all schools have the kind of online access, particularly for teaching in class, or have computer projectors that a teacher would need in order to display an online document. So while I dream of a time when the schools will be doing that and where the teachers will be sophisticated enough to use those documents in a proper way, for the moment we are preparing both online, but I think more importantly in print form, those kinds of materials, and increasingly that's what's being done in Vermont and elsewhere. Mr. Ketcham. I'd answer that in a couple of ways. One, I think the sort of documents that a teacher could use right away, the important ones, those are already out there. I don't think there's much hidden or unavailable in that way. I think, also, the other way that teachers need to come to a sound understanding of the founding that they can pass on to their students is through works like David McCullough's. What does David need to write his books? Well, he needs the kind of access that he's found in the printed volumes already and the kind of subtle understandings and insights that come from a carefully edited document. He's mentioned ways in which that works. So I think it would really be a shame to slow up the production of the works that are needed by people like David McCullough, whose books are going to be read by the teachers who teach the young. It's that process which I think needs to be very carefully guarded. Chairman Leahy. Dr. Marcum? Ms. Marcum. I did some searching on World Cat--it's kind of a union catalogue of what libraries hold--on the Alexander Hamilton papers since they've been published. Looking at Vermont, there are three institutions that have the papers of Alexander Hamilton in Vermont: the University of Vermont, Norwich University, and Middlebury College. There are probably other libraries that have these volumes that haven't contributed their bibliographic records to World Cat, but in general the academic libraries have these volumes, public libraries don't. They're too expensive for public libraries. I think it's important to work with teachers, as Stan has described. Electronic resources are particularly important because that's where school children go to find information. They look, first, on Google, frankly. I think we have to be concerned about making those materials available where school children search for information. Thank you. Chairman Leahy. I think I have hit a point here. Go ahead, Ms. Rimel. Ms. Rimel. Mine maybe is slightly different, but a response to a couple of your other questions. If there's interest in retaining the private sector's support for these projects, it is going to require greater oversight, greater transparency and accountability, and greater productivity, because representing the private donors here, we have a fiduciary responsibility in the investment of these. Chairman Leahy. But who does that? Who does that kind of oversight and transparency? What's the best way to do that? Ms. Rimel. I think what we're asking for is more for these papers as investors in the project. Chairman Leahy. No. But, I mean, who's going to make sure-- maybe I misunderstood what you said. You said it needs more oversight, more transparency. Is there an ultimate oversight person or function? Who does that? Ms. Rimel. I think that's what we're asking Congress to do. Chairman Leahy. OK. Ms. Rimel. After 50 years, we feel that that's needed, and I think that kind of assurance is going to be needed by the private sector to continue our investment in these projects going forward. Chairman Leahy. Good point. Doctor? Mr. Weinstein. Senator, we have many different kinds of students who need to be educated, ranging from those in the primary grades, secondary grades, high schools, colleges and universities. At the National Archives, we try to address this problem. It's now part of our commitment, it's part of our strategic plan--it wasn't 3 years ago but it is now--and we do it in a variety of ways, which involve extensive use of educational resources, whatever is available, in the four Washington, DC facilities, the 14 Regional Archives, the 13 Presidential Libraries, the 17 Federal Record Centers, and you can get an awful lot done when you are in 20 States, and if you're not in the State, you have access to it next door. If you take your section of the country, as far as I know there's no archival facility in Vermont. They may not have told me about it yet. But in any event, we are in Massachusetts at the Kennedy Library, we are in the Berkshires, western Massachusetts, very convenient to where you are as a Regional Archive. We are at the Roosevelt Library just across in New York City. There are ways of doing this without straining one's self if one wants to do it. It's just a question of getting in there, rolling up one's sleeves, and using the resources of the colleges, universities, and the rest that exist everywhere. We are a country which is absorbed with education and I'm not sure we use it effectively in terms of history and the civic mission. But that's the challenge, and what we're talking about today is one part of that. Chairman Leahy. When you mentioned Norwich University, that is the oldest private military university in the country. I was born in Montpelier. It's about 12 miles away, the other Montpelier. But 12 miles away from there. It's been a very interesting place. They have given honorary degrees to Thomas Edison. I was there once with Ambassador Vernon Walters, Dick Walters, when he received an honorary degree. He's a man who spoke about 13 languages fluently. He was our Ambassador to the United Nations. He's been deputy head of the CIA. He's a three- star general. Never got a college degree. Mr. Weinstein. That's right. Chairman Leahy. He got a lot of honorary degrees. Mr. Weinstein. I knew Dick Walters. Chairman Leahy. And a great raconteur. Mr. Weinstein. Indeed. Those of us who taught at Smith College for 16 years know Vermont very well, and enjoyed it. Chairman Leahy. Thank you. I think Mr. McCullough told me once of beginning research there, beginning to work on one of his books in Vermont, if I'm correct. Mr. McCullough. I did. I used the collection that's at Middlebury College down in the basement, which is provided for attorneys in every State. They had all the original reports of the various expeditions set out to determine which would be the best route for a Panama Canal. Chairman Leahy. Panama Canal. And I've told that story many, many a time. Mr. McCullough. And it's like going into a coal mine, because everything was very dirty so I wore my working clothes. Mr. Chairman, I would like to just make something clear that, from what Professor Katz said, may not be clear. When I suggest building another airport, what I mean is that we double the number of able, trained, good scholars and editors who are working on the project, and that there is no need to slow up any production in order to do these other things if you have the people necessary to just do more. There are too few people, the funding is too little, and it's not necessary to wait as long as it has taken if you increase the number of people involved. That does not mean you increase the number of people with less than adequate people. You increase the number of people with the best there is. We can do it. It's just a question of, are we willing to spend the money, make the investment, make the commitment? And we know from the example of what's going on at Montecello and at the Massachusetts Historical Society that it can be done. It works. Chairman Leahy. Thank you. I will leave the record open for anybody who wants to add to it. You'll get copies of the transcript. I can't tell you how much I've enjoyed this. I've sat through thousands of hearings on every subject imaginable, some fascinating, some where I'm sending quiet signals to my staff to keep sending more coffee because I don't want to doze off up here. This one was fascinating. Thank you all very much. Mr. Weinstein. Senator, I think I speak for all of my colleagues at this table to thank you and your two colleagues, your two Senator colleagues, for having taken this time. I don't know of many hearings that I've attended and which I have testified at, at which the members of the Senate stayed from start to finish. So, I we are very grateful. Thank you. Chairman Leahy. And our caucus where the Senate historian comes in, everybody says that is the most enjoyable part of our caucus. We fight after that, but everybody shuts up and listens to that part. Thank you. [Whereupon, at 11:41 a.m. the Committee was adjourned.] [Questions and answers and submissions for the record follow.] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]