[House Hearing, 111 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS TO COMBAT
MARITIME PIRACY
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, HUMAN RIGHTS AND OVERSIGHT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
APRIL 30, 2009
__________
Serial No. 111-13
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/
----------
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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOWARD L. BERMAN, California, Chairman
GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida
ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
Samoa DAN BURTON, Indiana
DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey ELTON GALLEGLY, California
BRAD SHERMAN, California DANA ROHRABACHER, California
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois
ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York EDWARD R. ROYCE, California
BILL DELAHUNT, Massachusetts RON PAUL, Texas
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York JEFF FLAKE, Arizona
DIANE E. WATSON, California MIKE PENCE, Indiana
RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri JOE WILSON, South Carolina
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia J. GRESHAM BARRETT, South Carolina
MICHAEL E. McMAHON, New York CONNIE MACK, Florida
JOHN S. TANNER, Tennessee JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska
GENE GREEN, Texas MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas
LYNN WOOLSEY, California TED POE, Texas
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas BOB INGLIS, South Carolina
BARBARA LEE, California GUS BILIRAKIS, Florida
SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada
JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York
MIKE ROSS, Arkansas
BRAD MILLER, North Carolina
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
JIM COSTA, California
KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota
GABRIELLE GIFFORDS, Arizona
RON KLEIN, Florida
Richard J. Kessler, Staff Director
Yleem Poblete, Republican Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on International Organizations,
Human Rights and Oversight
BILL DELAHUNT, Massachusetts, Chairman
RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri DANA ROHRABACHER, California
KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota RON PAUL, Texas
DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey TED POE, Texas
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida
Cliff Stammerman, Subcommittee Staff Director
Paul Berkowitz, Republican Professional Staff Member
Brian Forni, Staff Associate
C O N T E N T S
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Page
WITNESSES
The Honorable Stephen D. Mull, Senior Adviser to the Under
Secretary for Political Affairs, U.S. Department of State...... 7
Rear Admiral William D. Baumgartner, Judge Advocate General and
Chief Counsel, United States Coast Guard....................... 16
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
The Honorable Bill Delahunt, a Representative in Congress from
the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, and Chairman, Subcommittee
on International Organizations, Human Rights and Oversight:
Prepared statement............................................. 3
The Honorable Stephen D. Mull: Prepared statement................ 10
Rear Admiral William D. Baumgartner: Prepared statement.......... 19
APPENDIX
Hearing notice................................................... 40
Hearing minutes.................................................. 41
INTERNATIONAL EFFORTS TO COMBAT MARITIME PIRACY
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THURSDAY, APRIL 30, 2009
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on International Organizations,
Human Rights and Oversight,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 1:07 p.m., in
room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. William D.
Delahunt (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. Delahunt. The hearing will come to order.
It is my intention that this will be the first in a number
of hearings that the subcommittee will hold on the issue of
international maritime piracy, given its significance to our
national security as well as its consequences for the global
economy.
Earlier this month, our Nation watched as the Maersk
Alabama was hijacked off the coast of Somalia and an American
citizen, who is here in Washington today, by the way, Captain
Richard Phillips--he is over on the other side, as we say--who
happens also to be a graduate of the Massachusetts Maritime
Academy, one of, I think, the finest maritime academies
anywhere, happens to be in my district on Cape Cod. Well, as we
all know, he was held hostage for a number of days in a
lifeboat.
And shortly after his heroic rescue, another American
vessel, the Liberty Sun, was also attacked by Somali pirates,
making good on the pirates' threat to target and attack
American ships. While the Liberty Sun avoided the Maersk
Alabama's fate, the attack is only further evidence that
international piracy is an ongoing threat and must be addressed
and should be addressed quickly.
While today the focus of public attention is off the coast
of Somalia, some 5 years ago, the hot spot, in terms of piracy,
was in the Straits of Malacca. Five years from now, it will
likely be elsewhere in the world. And that underscores that it
is imperative that we work to devise, design, if you will, an
international architecture, an infrastructure, a blueprint that
can permanently be utilized to deal with the threat of piracy
wherever and whenever it emerges.
As I have been reading on this issue, I have come to learn
that there appears to be no silver bullet, no panacea, no easy
answer. And it is important, I believe, for us to listen to all
of the various parties, the stakeholders, and to educate
ourselves on the array of international issues implicated in
maritime piracy. Piracy presents a particularly difficult task;
because, it is not only an American problem but an
international problem that will need a coordinated response
from the global community.
Now, there are multiple opinions on how we can address this
issue. Some, like General Petraeus, have suggested we place
armed guards on merchant vessels. Others have claimed that this
would only increase the danger to seafarers. While
instinctually I am inclined to agree with General Petraeus,
what I do know is that this will be a multifaceted problem that
will require the full energy and engagement of the United
States Congress. And if we fail to act now, piracy will
continue to flourish and will have a political and economic and
humanitarian impact around the world.
Now, this subcommittee is tasked with the duty of
oversight, which is a responsibility that I and my friend and
colleague and ranking member, Mr. Rohrabacher, take most
seriously. It will fall to this subcommittee to ensure that
appropriate actions are being taken to address this serious
problem and that we are working in a way to protect our
national security and, particularly, American citizens while at
sea.
I am pleased to have learned that the State Department has
moved very aggressively, under the direction of Secretary
Clinton, to confront this challenge. The United Nations and our
superb Navy and Coast Guard forces are also playing a key role
in rising to the challenge. So this truly is an international
problem that requires an international solution. We do not, nor
should we, carry the burden alone.
Now let me just turn to my friend and colleague, the
gentleman from California, Mr. Rohrabacher, for any statements
he may care to make.
Dana?
[The prepared statement of Mr. Delahunt
follows:]Delahunt statement
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and
thank you for holding this hearing. It has been an issue that
has actually been around a lot longer than most Americans
think. I can remember reading about this 20, 30 years ago in
various parts of the world, including the part of the world
that we have just recently been alerted to.
So I would like to remind the chairman that, as long as we
have been on this committee, we have been hearing people who
have come to us and have pointed out how U.S. development
assistance is wasted, quite often, when it goes directly to a
foreign government. And, quite often, the governments,
especially in these developing countries, are corrupt or
ineffective or incompetent. But sometimes we have learned, and
quite often we have learned, that providing aid to these people
and making things better in a given area requires not going
directly to the government but, instead, directing resources
toward the problem specifically. The more efficient use of our
assistance quite often is going through private organizations
or the private sector, rather than to affected governments.
For this reason, I believe that military assistance in the
form of training or transferring used Coast Guard ships to
various African nations makes no sense and will prove to be
ineffective. I believe, instead, we must provide assistance
that will make a difference, that is done through the private
sector in some way, that will directly attack this problem.
For example, there are private-sector alternatives, such as
Blackwater and other organizations, that are set up basically
for such purposes as we are talking about. We have been using
them most recently as guards and security details for our
diplomats overseas, but they have the capability of actually
going in and providing security details for ships who are
transporting themselves through hostile waters.
These organizations, again, this is just--they are just
like NGOs, and they have their specific purpose in mind. And
they could and I believe provide an effective use of our
resources to combat a problem while creating American jobs at
the same time. Most people in these private organizations, like
Blackwater, have people who know the language and the culture
in order to get the job done and have many, many years of
experience as compared to simply training some people in a--for
example, in this case, an African country, training people and
expecting that 5 months of training or 3 months of training and
some equipment supplies is going to make a large difference and
enable them to meet a very serious challenge.
So my guess is that we shouldn't be wasting taxpayers'
money in Africa by sending it to corrupt governments. But,
instead, let's see if we can find a way, as we do in
humanitarian efforts, to send Americans or the equivalent of
NGOs, right at the problem by hiring these folks who can do the
job. And by hiring private organizations, we will know exactly
where the money is being spent and exactly what is being
accomplished in a very measurable way rather than giving money
to governments which, quite often, you never know what happens
once the money is transferred into their bank account.
So, with that said, I am looking forward to being briefed
on the nature of the problem and perhaps going over a few ideas
for solutions, as I have just mentioned.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Delahunt. Well, thank you, Dana. And it might come as a
surprise to you, but I don't know if I disagree with you. This
is remarkable.
Mr. Rohrabacher. It is going to be a really boring hearing.
Mr. Delahunt. I would inform our witnesses that, during the
course of the previous term, this subcommittee conducted some
52 hearings. This happens to be our first. Maybe we are just
tired, Dana, at this point in time.
But this is a serious issue. And let me be very candid: I
am coming to this to learn and to listen to all of the
stakeholders, as I have said. I have some concerns,
particularly about what I perceive to be a program that is more
attuned to recreational or commercial fishermen, catch and
release, but I am sure that will be addressed. By ``catch and
release,'' I mean while pirates have been apprehended, it would
appear that in many, many cases that there is a practice of
releasing them, if not forthwith, in a very short time frame.
But enough said. Let me introduce our witnesses.
You know, as I said, having served in the Coast Guard
myself, it is a particular honor to welcome Admiral Baumgartner
here today. I want you to know I was a radar man, third class,
and it gives me great pleasure to look down on an admiral at
this point in time.
He serves as the judge advocate general and general counsel
of the United States Coast Guard. In this capacity, he is the
Coast Guard's senior legal advisor and is responsible for all
aspects of the Coast Guard's legal program.
He is a graduate of the U.S. Coast Guard Academy. Holds an
MBA from the University of New Orleans and a law degree, magna
cum laude, from Harvard Law School. I also understand he was an
editor on the Law Review, a considerable achievement.
And next I am pleased to welcome Ambassador Stephen Mull,
senior advisor to the Under Secretary for Political Affairs of
the U.S. State Department. Ambassador Mull has oversight
responsibility for the Office of the Under Secretary of State
for Arms Control and International Security Affairs and its
related State Department bureaus.
Among other positions, he previously served as Acting
Assistant Secretary for Political Military Affairs from January
2007 until August 2008 and as U.N. Ambassador to Lithuania from
2003 until 2006. He is a career member of the Senior Foreign
Service in the class of Minister Counselor.
And I don't know if my colleague is aware, but our friend
and colleague from California, Ellen Tauscher, has been
nominated by the President to be Ambassador Mull's boss. I know
that you will find it a great experience working with the
Congresswoman, soon-to-be Secretary Tauscher.
But let's proceed. And this is a very informal process that
we have in this subcommittee. It is really, as Dana Rohrabacher
has said, it is the committee without rules, which means that
you can take as much time as you want, given the fact there is
only two of you. And we will attempt to conclude this hearing
in time for you, Ambassador Mull, to make your 2:15 p.m.
appointment.
Why don't we begin with Ambassador Mull.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE STEPHEN D. MULL, SENIOR ADVISER TO
THE UNDER SECRETARY FOR POLITICAL AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF
STATE
Mr. Mull. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and Mr.
Ranking Member, for the opportunity to come and meet with you
and, in fact, in an informal setting, discuss this really
important challenge.
I think, in the interest of your time and in the interest
of moving toward a more free-flowing exchange of ideas back and
forth, because we are very eager to hear your ideas, I would
ask that my formal testimony be entered into the record, and I
will just provide a quick overview of what is in it.
Mr. Delahunt. Without objection.
Mr. Mull. It is a very interesting problem of piracy in
Somalia because it features a convergence of, really, the very
first national interest of the United States from our very
founding, very important to Massachusetts, of ensuring freedom
of the seas, and it converges with this very 21st-century
phenomenon of asymmetric threats to our security interests. And
this convergence is all through the prism of the need to keep
energy flowing and keep humanitarian supplies flowing to one of
the simultaneously most destitute and most strategically
important corners of the globe.
Our approach, within the administration, we have basically
one strategic goal: We want to protect America's right and the
world's right to freedom of the seas through enhanced
international cooperation in stopping these pirate attacks and
building a lasting maritime security regime that we think will
serve all of our interests in the end.
Now, we have adopted a number of tactics in pursuit of that
goal. We have worked very closely in the United Nations to pass
a series of U.N. Security Council Resolutions, most recently on
December 16th, U.N. Security Council Resolution 1851, which, in
fact, granted significant authority to the international
community to intervene to stop pirate attacks.
We have also, right on the heels of that, took the lead in
creating an international contact group on the threat of piracy
off the coast of Somalia. That has grown to include 28 states
and six international organizations, which has met regularly
since the beginning of the year.
We have encouraged increased ship deployments, both through
our own example and our own U.S. Navy and Coast Guard presence
there in the region but also working with other states, to the
point where we have recently had as many as 40 ships patrolling
this area.
We have established a maritime security protective area
through which ships can transit under greater security
conditions.
A big problem, as we can talk about later, is figuring out
what to do with the pirates once we apprehend them. And so we
have worked to secure an agreement with Kenya that Kenya will
gladly take the pirates that we apprehend and prosecute them.
We also have a number of other discussions going on with other
states in the region to do the same thing. And, of course, as
in the case of Captain Phillips, we are going to be prosecuting
the pirate that survived the rescue attempt.
The Coast Guard and the Maritime Administration, as the
admiral will mention, have done an exemplary job of working
with the industry, because they have to play a very important
role in their own defense against these attacks. And I think we
have achieved quite a bit there, especially under the Coast
Guard's leadership.
We also can't lose sight of the fact that piracy is really
a symptom of a much broader problem in Somalia that is going to
take a lot of international attention and resources to fix. And
so we have enhanced our activism on that basket of issues, as
well.
I think the combination of these tactics has produced some
success already. Just since January 1st, all the various ships
participating in this effort have succeeded in 15 interdictions
of pirate vessels. This is in contrast to only eight in all of
2008. So already we have just about doubled--we are not even
halfway through the year yet, and we have doubled successful
interdictions. And we have apprehended a number of pirates; 52
of them are now awaiting trial in Kenya.
But in spite of the successes, there are a lot of
challenges. This is a wide swath of sea, 1.5 million square
nautical miles, depending on where you draw the boundaries. And
so, no amount of ships is ever going to prevent every attack of
piracy.
We also, as you alluded to, Mr. Chairman, have problems
with all of the countries--there is a broad consensus in
participating in this common effort to deter pirate attacks,
but each country has their own set and their own understanding
of what their national legal authorities are. And so, we feel
very comfortable, as Americans, apprehending pirates on the
high seas and bringing them to trial; other countries do not.
And so we are working to try and fill those gaps to make sure
that catch and release won't happen in the future.
Since the attack on the Alabama, Secretary Clinton and
President Obama have asked that we work much harder in a number
of directions. And so what we are in the process of looking
forward to now in the next couple of weeks is we are going to
convene an emergency session of the contact group that I
mentioned earlier, and we will meet in New York in a few weeks'
time.
And, at that meeting, we are going to press contributors
for even more forces in the region, to the extent that they can
contribute. We are going to identify those gaps that I talked
about to eliminate catch and release so that when pirates are
caught they are delivered swiftly to justice. We are going to
press very hard that victims have a responsibility in pursuing
prosecutions, that if a country's vessel is attacked, we
believe that that flag state of that vessel has a
responsibility to pursue justice against those pirates so we
are not funneling all of the pirates to places like Kenya; in
other words, share the responsibility a little bit more
broadly.
We are also exploring very preliminarily with our
colleagues in the Treasury Department what we might be able to
do to track and freeze assets of pirates. This, of course, is
very difficult because asset flows to pirates are typically
contained in suitcases stuffed with $100 bills or euros flung
onto the decks of ships from helicopters as a part of ransom
payments. But, nevertheless, we believe that there are some
directions that we can work. Probably not appropriate to
discuss in this setting, but we are looking at it very
carefully.
And then, finally, you may ask, despite all these efforts,
why are the number of attacks going up? Well, the point is
people have been paying ransom and enabling pirates to buy more
sophisticated weapons to organize themselves better. We are
redoubling our efforts, with particularly our European allies,
to say there should be no concessions to pirates. There is
significant opposition to this because some believe it is an
acceptable business cost, others believe you don't want to put
human lives in jeopardy. And, in fact, pirates have not really
been taking lives up until now. So it is something that we are
going to keep discussing. It is a difficult problem.
It is difficult and complex, as we talked about, Mr.
Chairman, at the beginning, but the truth is, we have something
really strong going for us, and that is a strong international
consensus that this is something that threatens all of us. And
we really hope that we can build on that consensus to overcome
some of these practical difficulties and make a real impact in
shutting down this threat not only to us and our citizens but,
really, to the world shipping community, as well as the states
in the region.
So I will stop there, and look very much forward to hearing
your ideas and answering your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Mull
follows:]Mull
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Delahunt. Thank you, Ambassador.
Admiral Baumgartner?
STATEMENT OF REAR ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. BAUMGARTNER, JUDGE
ADVOCATE GENERAL AND CHIEF COUNSEL, UNITED STATES COAST GUARD
Admiral Baumgartner. Mr. Chairman and Representative
Rohrabacher, before I begin, I want to assure the chairman that
any good admiral understands and knows in his soul that the
third-class petty officers do the real work of the Coast Guard,
not the admirals. So you have my admiration for your service in
doing the actual, real work of the Coast Guard.
I do appreciate the opportunity to appear before the
subcommittee to discuss piracy and the Coast Guard's role in
addressing this threat to freedom of navigation, the safety of
international shipping, and, I think most importantly, the
lives of the seafarers who are so crucial to our international
economy.
And I do ask that my written statement be included in the
record.
Mr. Delahunt. Without objection.
And, Admiral, I just want to recognize the presence of our
colleague from New Jersey, who happens to chair the Africa
Subcommittee--not happens to, but has really made a significant
contribution over time to Congress's understanding of issues
implicated in the continent of Africa. And that is Mr. Don
Payne.
Admiral Baumgartner. Good afternoon, sir.
Mr. Delahunt. Please proceed.
Admiral Baumgartner. Piracy is one of the oldest universal
crimes. And, under international law, every nation has the
legal authority to bring pirates to justice. This authority,
however, does not guarantee success in coordinated
international action, as the Ambassador mentioned is essential.
The national strategy for countering piracy off the Horn of
Africa acknowledges that lasting solutions require significant
improvements in the governance, rule of law--that is critical--
security and economic development of Somalia. However, there
are a lot of steps that can be taken in the near term, and the
national strategy lays out these steps in three basic lines of
action.
The first entails preventative and precautionary measures
to render piracy less attractive; most importantly, measures to
make commercial vessels more difficult targets for pirates. In
this regard, the United States and the Coast Guard have worked
closely with our Government and industry partners via the
International Maritime Organization, ad hoc consultations, the
international Contact Group on Piracy Off the Coast of Somalia.
We are doing this to produce practical and effective solutions.
Nothing illustrates the inextricable link between safety
and security like the issue of piracy. And I would stress that
this is critically important because, once the pirates are
onboard the vessel, as we all know, the dynamic on the water
changes considerably. And the dangers to the crew of the vessel
and the vessel itself go up dramatically once the pirates are
on board and in control.
The second line of action focuses on operations to
interrupt and terminate piracy. Toward this end, as we all
know, Central Command has established Combined Task Force 151
to deter, disrupt and suppress piracy in this region. For
several months, Coast Guard law enforcement detachments have
been operating under this combined task force, augmenting and
training U.S. naval vessel boarding search and seizure teams
and various maritime interdiction operations mission areas.
Currently, the Coast Guard 378-foot high-endurance cutter
Boutwell is operating under Combined Task Force 151 and will be
conducting counterpiracy operations in this area.
The third line of action focuses on effective prosecution
of pirates. Specific measures include the development of
regional anti-piracy agreements; promotion of existing
international agreements, such as the Convention for the
Suppression of Unlawful Acts Against the Safety of Maritime
Navigation--that is a mouthful, but we call it SUA for short;
and also the enhancement of regional partner capabilities.
These efforts are well under way. In January, as the
Ambassador mentioned, the United States signed an MOU with
Kenya, onto which Kenya will accept custody of suspects and
seized property for either trial in their country or transfer
to another. Kenya has already agreed to prosecute several
pirates captured by joint U.S. Coast Guard-Navy teams. Under
similar arrangements, the United Kingdom, European Union
countries have also turned pirates over to Kenya to be tried in
their courts. The SUA convention I mentioned before is a
valuable tool in these efforts.
Earlier this year, at a meeting convened by the
International Maritime Organization in Djibouti, 21 regional
nations adopted an agreement for cooperation in the
interdiction, investigation and prosecution of pirates, as well
as the establishment of information and training centers.
Although not eligible to be a party to this instrument, the
U.S. delegation, led by the Coast Guard, played an important
supporting role in the effort. We sincerely hope that there
will be other nations that step up, as Kenya has done, and
provide additional support in the region.
As the Nation's primary maritime safety and law enforcement
agency and a branch of the Armed Forces, the Coast Guard has a
unique and significant role in responding to piracy. The Coast
Guard leads U.S. anti-piracy efforts at the International
Maritime Organization. The service establishes and enforces
requirements for vessel security plans under the Maritime
Transportation Security Act and the International Ship and Port
Facility Code.
In the recent incidents with the Maersk Alabama and the
Liberty Sun, the plans that those vessels and those companies
developed pursuant to the Maritime Transportation Security Act
were critical in their successful responses to those pirate
attacks. And one of the things that has been highlighted many
times and I just would want to stress again is that those
masters of those vessels practiced those plans over and over
again, drilled their crews. And I am most familiar with the
Maersk Alabama, but the crew executed the plan exactly as they
were supposed to, and that was absolutely critical to the
positive result in that case.
Both the International Maritime Organization and the Coast
Guard are currently revising our directives on piracy-specific
security measures. Just Monday, we presented a proposal for
revised measures to a group of industry leaders, and we are
awaiting their feedback on those specific new security
measures.
In addition, we engage in international training to enhance
the capacity of other nations to take action against pirates,
both in their waters and in their courts. Significantly, the
Coast Guard has just published a revised Model Maritime Service
Code that developing nations may use as a template to establish
the laws and institutions necessary to counter piracy.
This is particularly important, as the Ambassador noted.
The international law regime is very robust in the area of
piracy; however, where it falls down or may fall down on
occasion is whether individual nations have adopted the
domestic law that they need to do their role in suppressing
piracy. The Model Maritime Service Code, one of its goals is to
give a template to those countries so that they can establish
the right domestic laws, with the right jurisdiction, the right
agencies and so forth, to take action on piracy and other
similar types of crimes at sea.
As I conclude, I want to emphasize that piracy is a
multifaceted threat. The response requires a broad array of
legal authorities, operational capabilities, skills and
competencies, as well as the participation of numerous U.S.
Government, international, and commercial entities. The Coast
Guard, as an armed force, our principal maritime law
enforcement agency and our principal regulatory agency for
maritime safety and security, has a unique role to play and
remains committed to this effort.
Thank you for the opportunity to address the committee, and
I look forward to questions and dialogue.
[The prepared statement of Admiral Baumgartner
follows:]Baumgartner
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Delahunt. Well, thank you very much, Admiral.
Like I say, we are very informal here, so this is more of a
conversation. And if a question is posed to one and the other
witness has a desire to interrupt, please feel free to do that.
You indicate that the problem is with the domestic legal
authorities, in terms of the prosecution of those that are
apprehended. It is my understanding that, even absent
conventions--the SUA, the Geneva Convention--that it is
customary international law that piracy, in and of itself,
confers jurisdiction in the right to prosecute individual
nation-states. But I guess what you are telling me is that
other nations would require some sort of domestic legal
authority and could not proceed just simply under customary
international law to prosecute those that were apprehended.
Is that a correct statement? Or am I misstating it? Am I
misunderstanding?
Admiral Baumgartner. No, I think that that is pretty
accurate.
Here in the United States, despite the fact that we would
have authority under the 1958 Geneva Convention on the High
Seas, for example, or the SUA convention, we would have
international authority to take action here. If we did not have
the actual sections in title 18 of the U.S. Code, we would not
necessarily have a crime to prosecute in our court.
There are other specific procedural issues that come up
from time to time with different nations. If the nation is not
prepared to prosecute such, should I say, far-flung or crimes
that are committed away from their shores, say, on the high
seas or other places, they will find that there are sometimes
procedural impediments in their own criminal processes where
they simply haven't thought ahead or aren't prepared to deal
with a delay between the arrest of an individual and the time
they are brought in front of a court, and many other particular
issues like that.
In the United States, I can speak to some things in
particular. We do have these regimes in place, and for that I
think we can thank the narcotics business. We have the Maritime
Drug Law Enforcement Act, which has forward-leaning and
forward-thinking jurisdictional provisions and does accommodate
those kinds of difficult and unusual scenarios. That is the
type of thing that is lacking from time to time in different
countries' domestic laws.
Mr. Delahunt. Ambassador?
Mr. Mull. And I would add, in addition to agreeing with
everything the Admiral said, there are often very discrete
policy or political questions involved, as well. Some national
prosecutors will decide, ``Well, yes, we recognize that an
attack on the high seas is something that we could prosecute,
but our nationals weren't involved, none of our flagged ships
were attacked in this. Even though we might have detained or
somehow apprehended these pirates, we are not going to
prosecute them because we don't have the resources to do it.''
And then there are other political questions. There is an
anecdote I like to tell about one of our own Navy ships that
picked up a Somali pirate. He was kept onboard in the brig, and
he started knocking and wanting to talk to somebody. And one of
the officers of the ship went down and said, ``Yes?'' And the
detainee said, ``You know, this brig is much nicer than where I
live in Somalia. May my family please come and stay with me
here?''
It is partly funny, but it also illustrates that, for many
people, if you arrest them and then take them into custody,
there may be national laws that prevent their return if they
are found not guilty. They will say that they face persecution
or terrible living conditions in Somalia, they would like
asylum. Or they will just remain there in the country and then
become a problem for that particular nation.
So all of these combinations of things really make many
countries reluctant to play an activist role. But we think
there is a responsibility that we have commonly to ensure
freedom of the seas. And so we are going to keep working with
our partners to show them the templates that the Admiral
mentioned and to keep policy pressure on them to change their
approach.
Mr. Delahunt. It would appear, you indicated that there is
a--maybe I am, again, not describing it accurately, but a model
legislation that is used in an effort to have other nation-
states adopt, so that the proper domestic legal authority
exists. And I didn't hear, has that been produced by the Coast
Guard, or is it a product of the Office of Legal Counsel of the
State Department, or is it--where was it generated?
I think you referenced it, Admiral.
Admiral Baumgartner. Yes, sir. There may be many things,
many products that help along those lines. What I was referring
to was a product the Coast Guard produces that is called the
Model Maritime Service Code. And it is designed to run the full
gamut of what a country would need to set up their marine
safety regime, their fisheries enforcement regime, the maritime
law enforcement regime, maritime security, would extend to
piracy, counterdrug operations. It would also have a template
on what type of agency they might set up to do the same kind of
thing, as well.
So it is actually a fairly robust document, but it does
have the specific things in there that a country----
Mr. Delahunt. But it does not provide, if you will, a model
law that could be emulated or replicated in other nation-
states?
Admiral Baumgartner. Oh, yes, sir, it does.
Mr. Delahunt. Oh, it does?
Admiral Baumgartner. Yes, sir. Depending upon the legal
structure in a particular country, they could take sections of
it simply verbatim and enact it. It is designed that way.
Mr. Delahunt. You know what I found interesting is that--we
are talking some Western democracies. I think I just read
recently the Netherlands apprehended and then, in a relatively
short period of time, released a number of these pirates. And
it became an issue of, you know, public debate, political
debate in the Netherlands.
And it is also my understanding that Russia has
apprehended, again, a number of pirates, and a decision has not
been made as to how their cases should be disposed of. I wonder
if they have reached a decision.
You have that on the one hand, and then you have the French
taking a much more aggressive approach than it would appear
that the United States and the United Kingdom are. Am I
describing that accurately?
And am I correct in stating that there is a lot of work to
do to create a consistent legal regime, in terms of how these
cases should be investigated and prosecuted and some sort of
understanding as to an appropriate sanction? Which, from my
perspective, should be very severe, simply to send a message
that there is a significant consequence for this kind of
behavior.
Mr. Mull. When we began our diplomacy in January to create
this contact group of countries that were going to coordinate
their efforts, we successfully persuaded our European partners
that this was a major flaw in the world's response to piracy.
And we persuaded them to agree to establish a legal working
group that met in Copenhagen in March to start examining these
discrepancies. And then we are going to be meeting again next
week, again, in the same group, to see how far we have come and
to identify these.
Mr. Delahunt. If I may, I think I read where there are four
working groups.
Mr. Mull. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Delahunt. And I take it, this is one of them?
Mr. Mull. It is working group number two.
Mr. Delahunt. And who is the lead in that working group,
the Danes?
Mr. Mull. The Danes have been the convener of this, but
they are rotating. You know, every time it meets, there is a
different host who organizes the meeting and pulls it together.
And State Department--the U.S. Government is represented at
these deliberations.
Mr. Delahunt. And who is representing the United States?
Mr. Mull. We have been sending an assistant legal advisor
of the State Department, Sue Biniaz, to participate in those,
with interagency participation.
Mr. Delahunt. Right.
I take it the Coast Guard is represented there, as well?
Admiral Baumgartner. We have been heavily involved in the
run-up in the preparations and so forth, so, yes.
Mr. Delahunt. Are we making progress, Ambassador, I guess
is the question?
Mr. Mull. Well, as you might imagine, pulling together 28
countries and trying to get them to be more like us is always a
challenge. It is slow progress, but I think there is progress
in terms of identifying the gaps.
I will tell you what helps a lot is the high profile that
this issue has gotten in the press. We have noticed, just since
the Alabama case, in the meetings we have had, particularly
with our European partners, there is much more readiness to
talk with us about the dangers from ransom, about the dangers
of catch and release.
And just after the incident with the Dutch that you
described, sir, the Dutch foreign minister met with Secretary
Clinton and told the press that the Netherlands is going to be
doing better on questions like this in the future.
So I am optimistic.
Mr. Delahunt. Do you agree or disagree with this statement,
that if we don't solve this particular problem, this might be
the most significant problem in terms of dealing--and I am not
saying that--you know, even if we do our best, in terms of best
practices, in terms of intervention, in terms of dealing with
Somalia as a failed state, all of those issues, if we don't
have a coherent legal regime that imposes substantial sanctions
to serve as deterrents, we are going to continue to have
problems. I mean, I would presume that, you know, a pirate who
is released goes back to Somalia and is in the next skiff out.
And I think it is important--let me ask you this question:
(A) do you agree with that? Both of you. And how can we,
Congress, play a role?
I was musing that, you know, clearly, particularly this
committee but other committees, too, often engage in
interparliamentary exchanges. I know that Congressman
Rohrabacher and I have been in Russia, we travel together, we
have been in Germany, simply to raise this issue with our
counterparts in the Duma or in the German Bundestag.
Does that aid or does that reinforce what you are
attempting to do? And let me hear your responses.
Mr. Mull. Well, Mr. Chairman, I completely agree that this
is an absolutely vital key to solving the problem. So I think
you have perceived it exactly right.
And in terms of what the Congress can do, I think through
your international engagement on the trips that you make
overseas and the interparliamentary fora that you participate
in, I think you could really help a lot by publicizing and
drawing your counterparts' attention to the need to have a more
harmonious legal approach.
Because this isn't the responsibility of the United States
or of Russia or the Netherlands; it is really all of our
responsibility. And we need a common set of tools and
authorities and capabilities if we are going to succeed.
Mr. Delahunt. I would note that this particular committee
has jurisdiction over multilateral organizations, including the
United Nations, which obviously implicate the IMO. And I know
Mr. Rohrabacher and I--and I am speaking for him here--would be
more than willing to observe, participate and support the
executive's efforts at the U.N., with the IMO or any other
organization.
With that, let me yield to my friend, Mr. Rohrabacher.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
How many people have lost their lives? Have we had these
pirates killing some of the people that they have taken over,
some of these ships, in the last year or so?
Mr. Mull. There have been a couple of sailors who have
died, not because they were executed by the pirates, but
because they were ill. And so, there have been no hostages, at
least in the last 2 years, that have lost their lives because
they were executed by pirates.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay. So there has been ransom paid; and
thus, the ransom was paid and the hostages weren't killed. Has
there been anyone who hasn't paid the ransom and having the
people released?
Mr. Mull. Well, certainly, we didn't pay ransom for the
Maersk Alabama. And I don't think we ever would.
Beyond that, Bill, do you know?
Admiral Baumgartner. Obviously, I mean, the French have
launched some operations, as well, to take vessels but----
Mr. Rohrabacher. But, I mean, not been released by us, by
an act. But has there been a situation where the pirates have
captured someone, asked for a ransom, they weren't given the
ransom, but the pirates just gave up and let them go?
Admiral Baumgartner. There is no incident that I am aware
of at all. And some of the vessels have been held there quite
some time. I am just looking here at a list. There are some
that were captured in August and are still being held.
I think that, from an economic standpoint, the vessel
owners, looking at the hostages there, paying the ransom is an
expedient way to get their vessel back and to get their crew
members released, get the cargo back on its way to its
destination.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Well, I am sure that they are very
concerned, the pirates that were holding these hostages, with
the legal working group in Copenhagen. I am sure they are just
sitting on the edge of their chair, waiting for the report,
before they make up their mind if they are going to take
hostages.
Is there any relationship between these terrorists--between
terrorist organizations, especially Islamic terrorist
organizations, and these Somali pirates?
Mr. Mull. There has been no indication. It is a question
that we examine very critically every single day. And, thus
far, we have not seen any evidence of a link. The Al-Shabaab
group in Somalia, in fact, has made pronouncements against the
pirates.
Since the incident with the Maersk Alabama, there were
threats from some of the pirates who said that they would now
ensure retaliation, violent retaliation, against American
interests. Whether or not terrorist groups could perceive of
that as an opportunity to get themselves involved in piracy is
a very real concern that we continue to watch, but we haven't
seen that link yet.
Mr. Rohrabacher. So is your testimony that the Al-Shabaab
group is not--you do not have evidence of them being engaged
with the Somali pirates?
Mr. Mull. No.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay.
Mr. Delahunt. Would the gentleman yield for a minute?
Mr. Rohrabacher. Certainly.
Mr. Delahunt. I think I read somewhere that there was
criticism from that particular group, or possibly another, that
condemned the piracy attacks as being un-Islamic. Is that
correct?
Mr. Mull. Yes, sir.
Mr. Delahunt. I yield back.
Mr. Rohrabacher. There is a quote from Sheikh Hassan
Abdullah Hersi al-Turki, the leader of the Al-Shabaab link to--
whatever they call this group. It is a group--I cannot
pronounce it, but it has been designated by the State
Department as a terrorist organization. And this sheikh says,
``I can say the pirates are part of the mujahideen''--religious
fighters--``because they are in a war with Christians and
Christian countries who want to misuse the Somali coast.''
Is there anything else that--it sounds like there is a link
there.
Mr. Mull. No, we have heard sentiments like that expressed,
but we have not seen any evidence of formal funding or
operational planning or encouragement in targeting as of yet.
But it is because of statements like that that we watch this
very closely.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay. Kenya, once it takes these
prisoners, what is the punishment if found guilty?
Mr. Mull. Well, none of these trials--there have been
preliminary hearings. None of them, of the 52 suspects now
there, have come to conclusion yet. So I don't know what their
sentences, if convicted, will be.
I am sorry, there were some convictions in 2006, for which
7-year sentences were given.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Seven-year sentences. So, I don't know
what the situation is with time off for good behavior or
anything in that country. I have no idea. Maybe not. Who knows?
But 7 years for piracy, which is the equivalent of kidnapping,
I would think it would be very similar. What is the punishment
in the United States for someone who would be convicted of a
similar crime?
Admiral Baumgartner. Piracy in the United States could
include life imprisonment.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Right. Okay. It would seem to me that that
would have more of an impact than 7 years in prison. Of course,
7 years in a Kenyan prison may be the equivalent of a lifetime
in the United States.
Let me just get back to one point about--rather than
looking at the pirates as, sort of, independent players. The
Puntland government, is it profiting from these pirates? Or the
Ethiopian Government? Because I understand that that is where
they are operating out of, under that auspices.
Mr. Mull. Yes, our information indicates that the vast
majority of pirate attacks are launched from organizations that
are located within the Puntland area.
The governor of Puntland has, just in the past month,
expressed his eagerness for some of the security assistance you
were mentioning earlier, Mr. Rohrabacher, in your opening
statement, volunteering to take on a more activist role to
undertake law enforcement in the area.
But, at the same time, I think it is indisputable that the
relatively vast sums that are now flowing in and out of that
area as a result of ransom payments does benefit not just the
pirates but also the people that live there.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Would you write off the possibility that
the head of the Puntland government and maybe some high
officials there are actually confederates, meaning they are
just sort of letting this happen and benefiting from it?
Mr. Mull. In this open session, I could neither rule it in
or out.
Mr. Rohrabacher. All right, I get you. Okay. So let's find
out, how did the Puntland government become the Puntland
government? Was this based on a free election, or were these
the people who were put into power by the Ethiopian
intervention?
Mr. Mull. I am not, unfortunately, an expert on internal
Somali politics. But I understand that this leadership emerged
from a pre-existing clan structure that the leadership has
chosen through clan counsels who live in that autonomous region
of the country.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Right. Who are allied with either certain
Somali interests or are allied with certain Ethiopian
interests.
It is my understanding that the current government was
actually allied with the Ethiopian efforts there. And has there
been any indication of the Somali Government in exile, which is
now in Eritrea, which has been cataloged by us as a radical
Islamic group--you say we don't have any evidence of Islamic
extremism being part of this. But does that mean that the
Somali Government in exile has not been tied to this?
Mr. Mull. Are you referring to the Transitional Federal
Government or the----
Mr. Rohrabacher. Yes, the Somali Government in Eritrea,
that is in exile in Eritrea.
Mr. Mull. I think that is another organization. I will have
to check into that further, sir. I am not familiar with that
particular organization. Because the Transitional Federal
Government, the TFG, is now set up again in Mogadishu. And I
will have to check into that and get back to you.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Yeah, I guess what I am getting to is
that, perhaps, the United States sided with the government in
Ethiopia after the current--if you want to call it the
Government of Ethiopia. Those people who lost the elections in
Ethiopia were embraced by our own Government. And the next
thing we know we are carrying our water by invading Somalia.
And the next thing we know is the area in which a government
was placed in power by that government, Ethiopian occupation,
ends up overseeing an area in which piracy is being conducted
on international vessels.
It seems to me that, if you look back far enough, that
really calls into question our relationship with Ethiopia, as
well as what is going on in Somalia. And that is just a
thought.
Now, back to my one point, and then I will yield back my
time, and that is the possible use of--you say there have been
40 vessels out there from various countries in order to thwart
this piracy. Now, it seems to me that what we are talking about
is a very easy--I mean, I know whatever challenge it is we have
to have European lawyers working in Copenhagen and the working
group. I understand how important that is to defeating this
enemy.
But in terms of the actual military confrontation that is
going on, or I should say armed confrontation that is going on,
couldn't these people be deterred by just having private
security guards on the ships or having someone hired by the
shipping companies to keep a protective cover in that part of
the world?
Admiral Baumgartner. Well, sir, you are right that security
on the vessels does have an impact. However, it is a very
complex thing as to how you put security on there, armed or
unarmed security.
Armed security is something that--we are spending a lot of
time right now in our Government reviewing all of the ins and
outs of armed security teams onboard vessels. It raises a whole
host of questions. It is being done by different companies
right now, and in some of them it is being done successfully to
deter attacks.
It does require an awful lot of coordination, a lot of
forethought, a lot of training. Having normal merchant seamen
pick up weapons and then expect them to fight off pirates with
rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47s is not necessarily going
to work very well. On the other hand, well-trained independent
security teams that have practiced together, understand fields
of fire, understand the basic rules for self-defense, when they
can fire and when they can't fire at pirates that are
approaching them--all of those things could definitely help.
There are many other problems, though. The cargo on many
vessels is totally incompatible with having a firefight.
Obviously, petroleum products, other hazardous chemicals, and
so forth--a very difficult thing and could be very dangerous.
There are other nations that have very different views on this
issue, and there are many nations and many interests that
thinks deg. that this raises the danger to the crews
and to the vessel and will take this whole thing to a different
level.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Those are the European allies who want to
send the lawyers in.
Admiral Baumgartner. Well, there are many of them, sir. And
there are also insurance interests that have a tremendous
influence in what companies do in this area.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Yeah, I understand the insurance interest
and our European friends that think that we can hug people and
be nice with them and then they won't hurt us. If we can just
set everything down legally, they will disappear.
Well, that is not going to happen. There are people in this
world like those pirates. And I will tell you, pirates
throughout our history have been the scum of the sea. And they
are willing to--and historically have been willing to murder
and kill. And these pirates, I believe, have the same
willingness to do that.
And I think it is up to us to have courage--if we can't
face down this type of threat and take care of it, God help us
for anything much more substantial. I would suggest that we
could even do that through the private sector. I would
recommend that we actually have a policy of encouraging ships
that are going in this area to hire private security
protection. And I think that it would disappear, the problem
would disappear.
Admiral Baumgartner. Yes, sir. As I mentioned, this is
actively being discussed and engaged. And what exact position
and many of the things that you just said are right on the top
of our plate and actively being worked with all of the
government agencies and industry and all of those interests
involved right now, particularly with U.S. vessels.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you.
Mr. Delahunt. Let me go now to the gentleman from New
Jersey, Mr. Payne.
But before I do, in the event that any of our European
friends, either in the audience or observing, you know, through
C-SPAN or whatever, I think it should be noted that the French,
for example, who I know are admired by my friend from
California, are probably the most aggressive in terms of
militarily and by force dealing with this issue.
And, in fact, maybe this is inaccurate, but I understand
the French have actually offered military escorts to the
various vessels transiting through the Red Sea and the Gulf of
Aden and the Cape of Good Hope, at a price obviously.
But is that a misstatement, or are the French actually
willing to provide military escorts on private ships for a
price? Have either one of you heard of that?
Mr. Mull. That the French Government would pay for a
private security firm to----
Mr. Delahunt. No. In other words, the French Government
would----
Mr. Mull. Would ride on the ships, the military.
Mr. Delahunt [continuing]. Would place on private vessels
French military, presumably special operation teams, that would
be paid for by private vessels.
Admiral Baumgartner. I am not personally familiar with
this, but I have been informed that there has been some
discussion from the French and perhaps the Belgians on that
issue. But I don't really have any more.
Mr. Delahunt. If you could follow up, I would be
interested, given, you know.
Mr. Payne?
Mr. Payne. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I commend you for
having this hearing. It is a pretty complicated issue that they
are dealing with.
You know, for my colleague from California, the old pirates
who were, you know, the scum of the earth and all that stuff,
they don't stay on the water like the old pirates used to do.
You know, pirates used to just live on ships and roam around
the world. These pirates don't live on boats. They try to, I
guess, get the booty and go back to land. So there is a
difference in the lifestyle. You know, they are not the way it
used to be.
And, actually, from what I have been able to understand, it
is really some kind of cartels, criminal cartels, that are--
believe me, the last thing on the mind of these hijackers is
some ideology of some Islamic, you know--it has absolutely
nothing to do with Islamists and anti-West and al-Qaeda-linked
and all that.
As a matter of fact, as has been indicated, there is
absolutely no one in Somalia, other than the criminal cartels
that are doing it, that appreciate that it is happening. The
current government of Sheikh Sharif Ahmed, the government up in
Puntland and in Somaliland and in Mogadishu, Sheikh Sharif
Ahmed--none of them want it. The only people, like I said, who
are benefiting is this group of criminals who have found a way
to make some money. They are not giving to the Red Cross. I
mean, you know, it is not assisting Somalis in general. It is
making some criminals, maybe some of the old warlords, you
know, wealthy.
But I guess time is running out and a vote is coming on.
But I did have an opportunity to speak with a broad group of
people in Mogadishu, a day or two after the ship was released.
And, actually, I mentioned very clearly at a press conference
with the Prime Minister that I thought that the actions of
President Obama and the Navy SEALS was appropriate and that
criminality cannot be tolerated and there has to be assertive
action to end it. If there is no deterrent to ending this, it
will just continue. And there was absolutely no dissent from
about 25 media people.
So the government, in particular, doesn't see piracy--as a
matter of fact, they say that, you know, it is just wasting a
lot of time and effort to try to get the pirates out in the
ocean. He says, You have to deal with them on the ground,
period. That is the way that you can eliminate it before they
go. And they have a plan, which they feel they could handle it.
As a matter of fact, you know, Sheikh Sharif and the
Islamic Courts Union ended the piracy during the 6 months they
were in charge. But the United States backed Ethiopia to go in
and dislodge the ICU, and they left, and that is when the
piracy became emboldened.
So I think it can be dealt with if the new government is--
you know, they are interested in having some training of their
militia. It may be in Kenya somewhere or Uganda. And they are
very assured that they can eliminate it on the ground. And I
think that would make a lot more sense.
You know, the three groups in Somalia: You have the
government, you have the pirates and you have Al-Shabaab. Now,
Al-Shabaab is allegedly trying to get a foothold linked to al
Qaeda. The hijackers are criminals that have cartels, and they
are, you know--so those two groups have money. The only group
that has no money is the government. And they are the ones that
want to end piracy, and we can't get the West to engage with
the government. They say, ``We can handle this. Believe me, we
will have no problem. And, as a matter of fact, if we even got
some intelligence from, you know, the West to even assist us in
locating them or seeing when they are planning to leave land,
we could wipe them right out.'' But the only ones that have no
resources is the government.
So we could spend a lot of money trying to go over all
these oceans to try to run these guys down. And I am not so
sure the insurance companies care very much anyway. They are
not hurting. As a matter of fact, I think we ought to
investigate the increased profits that the insurance companies
are making with this new surcharge that they are charging. And,
of course, the shipping companies just put a surcharge on each
container.
Mr. Delahunt. Would the gentleman yield?
Mr. Payne. Yeah.
Mr. Delahunt. I think that suggestion is one that we will
pursue. And as I indicated before you arrived, Mr. Payne, what
I anticipate is just a thoughtful but thorough review of all
these issues, because it is somewhat complex. And I don't
disagree with the plausible theory that maybe insurance
carriers are a part of the problem and, therefore, a part of
the solution here.
Mr. Payne. Oh, yeah, no question about it. And, you know,
contrary to what I think the gentleman from California--there
has been no--you know, the relationship between the pirates and
the crew, I mean, they are all sitting there waiting, when the
insurance company--when are they going to pay the ransom so I
can go back to land and the other guys can get on with their
business, drop their crew and go on. And so the holdup is not
with the--and, as you mentioned, there have been no reports of
mistreatment on the parts of the crews of the ships from the
hijackers.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Would the gentleman yield for one moment?
Mr. Payne. Yeah.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Just to note--and I think it is a very
important point that you are bringing up about insurance--has
the insurance gone up dramatically on these ships, to insure
these ships from this?
Mr. Mull. My information suggests that the surcharge that
Congressman Payne referred to has primarily been imposed by
European insurers. American insurers have not yet taken that
measure yet. But then that is also because American insurance
policies typically don't cover ransom payments the way
European----
Mr. Rohrabacher. Of course, if insurance rates are going to
go up, maybe there is your source of revenue for paying for
private protection. There you go.
Mr. Payne. Oh, absolutely. And also, you know, the flags of
convenience. You don't really know who the ship really belongs
to, to be honest, because they fly under the flags of
convenience, of either Panama or Liberia or Guam. And so it is
very difficult to know who is--you know, of course it was clear
with the Maersk line. But I am sure that some of those other
ships out there are owned by American businesses, it is just
that they have international crews.
Which also may be another thing that the insurance
companies really don't care that much necessarily about. You
know, some of the treatment of these seamen are not the best
either, many of them from Third World countries with no rights.
And they are not going to complain, you know; it is the best
thing they got. At least they have a meal going. They get a
little something when the ship goes somewhere and they can get
home.
So I don't see whether there is necessarily, you know, a
tremendous amount of concern, really, for the crew. I mean, the
crew is about the easiest thing those ships can get. You know,
I mean, people are waiting in the Philippines or in other
countries around the world to be seamen. And that is why the
ILO and the flags of convenience have been a debate over in
Geneva for decades, about even the safety of the ships and the
conditions. Because when they fly under the flag of
convenience, there is no jurisdiction from the countries that
are doing the business.
So, just concluding, we are running out of time, I think
that the leadership of Puntland, Somaliland, Somalia really
want to see this end, because it does absolutely nothing for
the country, which are in terrible straits in the first place.
I mean, Somalia has been abandoned for 15 years, and they are
certainly not going to get anybody investing in Somalia with
these gangsters doing what they are doing.
And so, I think that if--and getting, you know, the
Department of Defense and the Navy and all that in your
discussions--like I said, I have been talking to these fellows
up in Eritrea in August and Mogadishu, as you know, a couple of
weeks ago. They really want this thing to end, because they
really are trying to see if they can--you know, all the fish
are gone after, allegedly, overfishing from Asian trollers that
just depleted the fishing.
It is alleged that there has been dumping of toxic, you
know--if you got no government, you got no one to say, ``Stop
dumping that.'' You got no Coast Guard, so there has allegedly
been dumping of toxics and all kinds of things off the coast of
Somalia. So it certainly doesn't condone criminal behavior.
However, there needs to be some kind of a--if you got a failed
state, you know, you have to deal with it. We are trying to
deal with Afghanistan, which is a lot worse than Somalia,
believe me, and Iraq.
So I would hope that in the thinking we would kind of
figure out if we do something on the ground, we might be able
to save a lot of increased insurance rates and our ships riding
all around. The ocean is pretty big, you know.
Mr. Delahunt. Would the gentleman yield?
Mr. Payne. Yeah, I will yield back.
Mr. Delahunt. Thank you. And I think your point is well-
taken. I mean, I would agree, there has to be a comprehensive
approach here. But I think what we need is to understand the
various pieces, so that some time in the future we are able to
have a more well-informed discussion with the agencies in the
executive branch. I know that this is a learning curve, really,
for all of us.
But I think something that you said, Mr. Payne, really has
to be underscored, is that those who dismiss an increasing
reality, which is that there are failed states that exist,
there is extreme danger. And despite the fact that Somalia is
on a different continent thousands of miles away from the
United States, we are impacted. And we have states that are
failed or near failure right here in our own backyard. I am
just thinking of Haiti, for example.
And that is why it is important, I think, to create an
architecture, a blueprint, if you will, or a plan that can be
utilized in any situation where piracy emerges as a significant
problem. And we ought to take the time, given the high profile
that this issue has now developed, to really understand the
problem, discuss it with all of the stakeholders, and proceed
in a very thoughtful manner.
And let me conclude with that. And thank you for your
participation, Mr. Payne, and to thank our witnesses. I can
assure you we are going to ask you to return. We are not going
to impose a burden on you, but bear with us as you guide us to
a more full and ample understanding of how we address this
problem, which has severe consequences for our national
security and for our economy.
I also, before I take the gavel, I want to thank some
interns that have really done us well. And if they could stand:
Carla, Carla Rojas; and Leanne, Leanne Blanchette. They have
worked here assiduously. This is their first hearing, and it is
also their last day. But I want to thank them publicly for the
good work that they have done.
And, with that, we are adjourned. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 2:25 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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