[House Hearing, 109 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] CONJUNCTIVE WATER MANAGEMENT: A SOLUTION TO THE WEST'S GROWING WATER DEMAND? ======================================================================= HEARING before the SUBCOMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND RESOURCES of the COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION __________ APRIL 5, 2006 __________ Serial No. 109-142 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Government Reform Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/ index.html http://www.house.gov/reform ______ U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 27-514 WASHINGTON : 2006 _____________________________________________________________________________ For Sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; (202) 512�091800 Fax: (202) 512�092250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402�090001 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT REFORM TOM DAVIS, Virginia, Chairman CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut HENRY A. WAXMAN, California DAN BURTON, Indiana TOM LANTOS, California ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida MAJOR R. OWENS, New York JOHN M. McHUGH, New York EDOLPHUS TOWNS, New York JOHN L. MICA, Florida PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania GIL GUTKNECHT, Minnesota CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York MARK E. SOUDER, Indiana ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio TODD RUSSELL PLATTS, Pennsylvania DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois CHRIS CANNON, Utah WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee DIANE E. WATSON, California CANDICE S. MILLER, Michigan STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, Maryland DARRELL E. ISSA, California LINDA T. SANCHEZ, California JON C. PORTER, Nevada C.A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, Maryland KENNY MARCHANT, Texas BRIAN HIGGINS, New York LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina Columbia CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania ------ VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio (Independent) ------ ------ David Marin, Staff Director Teresa Austin, Chief Clerk Phil Barnett, Minority Chief of Staff/Chief Counsel Subcommittee on Energy and Resources DARRELL E. ISSA, California, Chairman LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia DIANE E. WATSON, California ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida BRIAN HIGGINS, New York JOHN M. McHUGH, New York TOM LANTOS, California PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina DENNIS J. KUCINICH, Ohio KENNY MARCHANT, Texas Ex Officio TOM DAVIS, Virginia HENRY A. WAXMAN, California Lawrence J. Brady, Staff Director Dave Solan, Professional Staff Member Lori Gavaghan, Clerk Richard Butcher, Minority Professional Staff Member C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on April 5, 2006.................................... 1 Statement of: Peltier, Jason, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Water and Science, Department of Interior; P. Joseph Grindstaff, director, California Bay-Delta Authority; and Anthony J. Pack, general manager, Eastern Municipal Water District, Perris, CA................................................. 12 Grindstaff, P. Joseph 20 Pack, Anthony J. 32 Peltier, Jason 12 Letters, statements, etc., submitted for the record by: Grindstaff, P. Joseph, director, California Bay-Delta Authority, prepared statement of........................... 22 Issa, Hon. Darrell E., a Representative in Congress from the State of California: Briefing memo................................................ 6 Prepared statement of........................................ 3 Pack, Anthony J., general manager, Eastern Municipal Water District, Perris, CA, prepared statement of................ 35 Peltier, Jason, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Water and Science, Department of Interior, prepared statement of..... 15 CONJUNCTIVE WATER MANAGEMENT: A SOLUTION TO THE WEST'S GROWING WATER DEMAND? ---------- WEDNESDAY, APRIL 5, 2006 House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Energy and Resources, Committee on Government Reform, Washington, DC. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:05 p.m., in room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Darrell E. Issa (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding. Present: Representatives Issa and Kucinich. Staff present: Larry Brady, staff director; Lori Gavaghan, legislative clerk; Tom Alexander, counsel; Dave Solan, Ph.D., and Ray Robbins, professional staff members; Richard Butcher, minority professional staff member; and Cecelia Morton, minority office manager. Mr. Issa. This meeting will come to order. A quorum being present, this hearing of the Government Reform Subcommittee on Energy and Resources will come to order. Good afternoon. We want to welcome our distinguished panel for today's subcommittee hearing. Today, we will highlight the growing demand for water in Western States and how conjunctive water management provides a partial solution. Booming population growth, coupled with arid climates, have intensified the need for more efficient water supply management systems. In response, several methods have been employed to maximize water supply, such as conservation programs, construction of new dams, and desalination plants. Despite these methods of water supply and infrastructure in California and throughout the West, we continue to remain vulnerable to an impending crisis. This issue is of paramount importance to my constituents in southern California and throughout the entire West. Some experts propose that conjunctive water management is the leading and most effective method of resolving water shortage problems. Conjunctive--thank you, gentlemen. I know you will say it better than I do. Conjunctive water management is a tool which coordinates the use of surface and ground water, focusing on the creation of additional water storage. This method of water management has the potential to double--I repeat, to double--the amount of on-demand water supply in my home State of California. However, there also are some challenges to the expansion of conjunctive use management. These include acquiring necessary resources to build new or refit current facilities, possible environmental problems-- which we will deal with today--and lack of data on regional water tables. The hearing today will provide an overview on how well current conjunctive water management projects are working. Our hearing will also address the benefits and shortcomings of conjunctive water management systems. Finally, we will look at the Federal role in the design, funding, or implementation of conjunctive water management systems. I look forward to hearing from our distinguished panel today. And today, we have Mr. Jason Peltier, Deputy Assistant Secretary of water and science, Department of Interior. Mr. Joseph Grindstaff, director of California Bay-Delta Authority. And Anthony Pack, general manager, Eastern Municipal Water District, Perris, CA, within my district, I will mention. [The prepared statement of Hon. Darrell E. Issa follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.001 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.002 Mr. Issa. I look forward to hearing all of your testimony, and I ask unanimous consent that the briefing memo prepared by the subcommittee staff be inserted in the record, as well as all relevant material. Without objection, so ordered. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.003 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.004 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.005 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.006 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.007 Mr. Issa. Now for the opening statement, I will yield to the gentleman from Ohio, who is serving for the ranking member today. Mr. Kucinich. Mr. Kucinich. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I was called by Congresswoman Watson and informed that a death in her family made it imperative that she attend a service in California, and I am glad to fill in so we can start this hearing. After I make this statement, I am going to have to go to another previously scheduled meeting. But I want to welcome the witnesses, and I want to thank the Chair for calling this hearing on conjunctive water management. Mr. Chairman, the need for reliable, high-quality water sources in the United States is clear. The population continues to grow steadily, especially in the arid, thirstiest parts of the country. Demand for water is growing even faster. In fact, many experts fear that the thirsty and rapidly growing Southwestern United States will need water so desperately that it will soon become financially viable for them to try to divert it from the Great Lakes. And that region is expected to experience more frequent, prolonged, and more severe droughts as a result of climate change, making the outlook even more dire. We must look for alternatives. As has been stated before, conjunctive water management is the simultaneous operation of surface water storage and use, ground water storage and use, and conveyance facilities to meet water management needs and crop demand. In a nutshell, it allows storage of large quantities of water, which would help areas weather the fluctuations in water supply that climate change will bring. For several decades, the Federal Government, along with many State and local governments, has used conjunctive water management projects for a variety of purposes, such as flood control, power generation, irrigation, and several other purposes. It has also been a resource to improve water supply reliability and protect water quality to improve environmental conditions. At the same time, there are concerns, especially about potential environmental effects. If the recharge water is contaminated, an entire water supply could be permanently ruined. For example, an illegal discharge of a gallon of gas is enough to render millions of gallons of water undrinkable. If the recharge water will filter through the soil to reach the storage aquifer, some contaminants might still make it through to the water, even in tight soil. The lands required to allow such infiltration through soil can concentrate water contaminants over time in the soil, rendering the land useless in the future. And the physical infrastructure could adversely affect wildlife habitats. Conjunctive water management has the potential to alleviate some of the pressure on an expanding population and economy. But we must move forward with our eyes open to ensure our environment is fully protected. And I am hopeful that the testimony before this subcommittee today, Mr. Chairman, will help the Congress better understand some of the potential benefits and pitfalls of conjunctive water management. I yield back my time, and I thank the Chair. Mr. Issa. Thank you, Mr. Kucinich. As is the rule of this subcommittee, I would ask that all the witnesses and any persons who may advise the witnesses rise to take the oath, please. [Witnesses sworn.] Mr. Issa. Let the record show all answered in the affirmative. And thanks again, Mr. Kucinich. Now I will give you the good news and the bad news here today. The good news is that we won't hold you strictly to your 5 minutes for your presentations. The additional good news is that your entire written statement will be placed in the record. So you need not repeat it, if you choose not to. Now, the bad news is at some time, potentially, between now and 3, there will be an unexpected vote, at which time this will end. So the time used, you know, if a vote gets called, we will not make up. Additionally, because of a classified briefing being held today, this hearing must end at 3. So I don't expect us to go past that, but I wanted to give you all that opportunity. And last, but not least, I want to ask if you would all agree, since many Members are in other committee markups right now, to answer additional questions placed to you in writing after the hearing? OK. Then by unanimous consent, I would ask that we be able to do that. And so ordered. We will begin with Mr. Peltier. STATEMENTS OF JASON PELTIER, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR WATER AND SCIENCE, DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR; P. JOSEPH GRINDSTAFF, DIRECTOR, CALIFORNIA BAY-DELTA AUTHORITY; AND ANTHONY J. PACK, GENERAL MANAGER, EASTERN MUNICIPAL WATER DISTRICT, PERRIS, CA STATEMENT OF JASON PELTIER Mr. Peltier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased to be here today and to talk about conjunctive use with the subcommittee. Indeed, in your opening statement, you put your finger on it. There is an expanding use of this water management strategy where it is possible. It's not possible--it takes a right combination of surface and ground water resources to be able to make it work. But it is indeed--we're seeing increased use of this approach. I'm going to talk a little bit about the Bureau of Reclamation's role, but also about the U.S. Geological Survey role because they both have unique and can make significant contributions to conjunctive use. Relative to the Bureau of Reclamation, it's important to recognize that Reclamation's role in all cases that I'm aware of--and I will give you some specific examples--but it focuses on supplying surface water. Reclamation is on the surface water side of the equation. We are very deferential to State law, which regulates ground water. And so, as a matter of water rights law, we stay away from injecting ourselves--and excuse the pun--into this--into local conjunctive use projects. There's another Federal component also, which is on the regulatory side, and that has to do with compliance with the Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act. Those are outside of Reclamation or the GS's purview. But we are all mindful that those processes do exist. I'd like to give you a few examples. One, starting in California. Many of the customers of the Bureau's Central Valley Project do participate in water banks, local water banks. In fact, also the entire Friant Division of the Central Valley Project, approximately a million acres from Bakersfield to Fresno, is one large conjunctive use program. Not operated by us, but our customers--when in years like this, when there's ample surface water, will turn their wells off. Natural recharge will occur, and in drier years, when we cannot deliver surface water, they will turn their wells on, and that's the way they will sustain their irrigation. In Arizona, unused--Central Arizona Project water is stored underground in the Arizona water bank for use in future years, when the allocation may not be adequate for Arizona's needs. They can then withdraw from their water bank. In Washington State, a program was developed for local users to pump ground water and store it artificially in a surface reservoir, which has provided a multitude of benefits and maximized use of the Federal facility. Reclamation is also working with the city of Albuquerque in New Mexico on a project to reuse industrial and municipal effluent, to treat and put it underground for future use. So Reclamation has a number of roles. Mostly, though, it is working with their local customers who have the resource to match up to the surface water. The U.S. Geological Survey has a number of unique scientific capabilities and skills that they bring to the table to assist local entities that are trying to develop conjunctive use programs. They can provide hydrologic data for planning of these systems. They can provide hydrologic modeling and have techniques to help the planning and design process. They can apply their ground water models to specific regional systems to evaluate the potential for conjunctive use. And they also have a wealth of hydrologic data that goes into the planning processes for these projects. As I said, most of the GS's work is conducted through the U.S. GS Cooperative Water Program, and that's on a cost-share basis with local interests. We try to match up our skills and capabilities with the needs of our partners and work together in that constructive manner. In addition, GS has the capability to provide monitoring of existing and then once constructed facilities to give the project managers the ability to understand--know and understand how the project is going to perform and is performing. So, in summary, I would just say that we do see it as you do, Mr. Chairman, as a valuable tool. A tool that avoids--and as Mr. Grindstaff will let you know, in California, there has been a significant investment in conjunctive use ground water programs. In fact, significant progress has been made. And while there is, as you say, significant interest in surface water projects, these ground water projects are quicker, easier to get off the ground. The only caution that I would have is, that we need to be mindful of, I think, is that a lot of ground water banks and conjunctive use programs have been developed over the last decade in California, where conditions have been relatively wet. So I don't think we've experienced--we haven't tested the withdrawal part of the formula. We've tested and are capable of getting the water underground. When we have repeat of 1977 or the drought of the late 1980's and we have to extract, that's when we'll see whether the projects that we're investing in today really work. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Peltier follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.008 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.009 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.010 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.011 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.012 Mr. Issa. Thank you. I will take that there has never been a run on the bank, and we are waiting for a 1929 test. OK? Only I can say that, I suspect. Mr. Grindstaff. STATEMENT OF P. JOSEPH GRINDSTAFF Mr. Grindstaff. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I won't refer to my written testimony, but I'll talk about our experience. I actually have experience both at a local and regional level and now at the State level. In California, 15 years ago, everyone knew that conjunctive management was a great thing to do, that ground water storage was really important. Over the last 15 years, we've developed more than 7 million acre-feet of ground water storage. Jason is absolutely right. We have yet to test the extraction because we've really been in a wet cycle since then. But I think even the most optimistic person 15 years ago would never have guessed that we could actually develop the amounts of ground water storage that we've developed today. The State's role has been, in some cases, to help finance technical studies, and we've invested hundreds of millions of dollars in helping to do that across the State. In some cases, helping to build facilities, both facilities to put water in and extraction facilities, and in general to encourage that. I also want to point out that you are exactly right in your opening remarks. This is only a part of the solution. Without having the conveyance and the ability to take surface water deliveries when times are wet, having a place to store water doesn't do us a lot of good. So we really have to have a full program in order to truly develop conjunctive use programs. I also want to address water quality problems. One of the things that happens as you store water is not that you put poor quality water in, but that when you put water in, you actually raise the ground water table. And it comes up into an area where there is contamination. So one of the largest costs that sometimes occurs actually, is the cost of treating water when you extract it. Some of the contamination problems are natural. So you may find an aquifer that has high arsenic, for example, and that can be a challenge. But given our need in the West--and in the world, really-- for a reliable water supply, it's the kind of investment we have to make. We're past the time of cheap alternatives. We're in a time where we truly have to invest in the future, and we have to understand that some of those things are going to cost more money than we would have paid in the past. But they're worth it. 20 years from now, people will say, boy, those people were visionary because they invested in these things. They cost a lot, but they're very much worth it. The other point that I'd really like to make is that, in some cases, doing conjunctive management dramatically improves water quality in a region. So there is conjunctive management, for example, what the Orange County water district is doing, where they're taking recycled water, running it through desalters, and putting that water--or they're planning to put that water into the ground. That will dramatically improve the water in the Orange County ground water basin, in addition to firming up their supply. So these projects can have multiple benefits that truly are farsighted. With that, thank you very much. [The prepared statement of Mr. Grindstaff follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.013 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.014 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.015 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.016 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.017 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.018 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.019 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.020 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.021 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.022 Mr. Issa. Thank you. Once again, all of your statements will be in the record. I do appreciate it when you are able to add to the base text. Tony, it is all yours. Everyone has been so good. There is high hurdle here. STATEMENT OF ANTHONY J. PACK Mr. Pack. Mr. Chairman, you believe how much I've struggled to get this thing down to 5 minutes, and I'm glad it's in the record. My name is Tony Pack, and I'm the general manager of Eastern Municipal Water District. On behalf of my organization and my board of directors, it's a real privilege to be here to present this testimony on a local agency's perspective on conjunctive water management and the potential participation of the Federal and State government. EMWD provides water, waste water, and recycled services for about 580,000 people in Western Riverside County in southern California, including parts of the chairman's district, one of the fastest-growing regions in the Nation. EMWD relies on imported water to meet 65 percent of its needs and supplements the remainder with recycled water, ground water wells, two desalters, a fledgling conjunctive use program, and additional supplies, which have been developed almost entirely through the development of locally funded and managed projects. Based on our experience with the development of new water through conjunctive use and our efforts to develop a ground water management plan with the local agencies, we would suggest several recommendations in the area of partnership, funding, and environmental areas. An essential element of the development of a conjunctive water management program is the administrative and operational procedures that are necessary to develop and maintain such an agreement. These rules can be established through a court order adjudication, which requires many years of expensive legal efforts, or a cooperative community effort. In our area, the two cities, the two water agencies, and the private well users voluntarily began the process to develop a ground water management plan to permit a major conjunctive use project to be implemented and also to resolve a longstanding Indian water rights claim. It was necessary to overcome years of perceptions, mutual distrust and suspicion, and parochialism. And this was only possible through the efforts of Mr. Grindstaff's Department of Water Resources, which provided an independent facilitator and a technical team of DWR employees and consultants that created a nonconfrontational and credible forum for discussion and validation of data. First recommendation. Encourage programs similar to DWR's local agency partnership program throughout the Western States and create a similar program within the Federal agencies, perhaps under the auspices of the Bureau of Reclamation. Recommendation. Except for very large projects that provide a State-wide benefit, design and implementation of conjunctive use projects should be under local control. The infrastructure costs of implementing a conjunctive use program can be beyond the reach of many agencies. One solution is to develop financing for storage projects through a cooperative cost-sharing agreement with other agencies that recognize the multiple benefits of the project. Recommendation. Where multiple benefits can be incorporated, work with other local agencies to share the costs. Serving rapidly growing areas like ours requires enormous capital to provide water and waste water infrastructure. In many cases, it is more efficient and economical to oversize those facilities, although it may take many years to recoup that financial investment. Faced with limited financial resources, agencies are forced to use available cash to satisfy immediate needs for infrastructure, and beneficial projects such as new sources of water supply which do not always rise to the top of the priority list. Recommendation. State and Federal assistance for loans and grant programs for the development of new water supplies must continue to be funded. The economic returns of these programs far exceed the investments. EMWD has developed a highly structured and successful process for securing loans and grants to partially finance resource projects. Not all agencies have the resources to pursue State and Federal financial assistance programs. And therefore, we recommend the development of less costly and cumbersome application processes or, at a minimum, provide assistance to those agencies lacking resources to apply for loans and grants both at the Federal and State level. The last area is the area of environmental. Environmental permitting processes and the local coordination between Federal agencies is, in many cases, the major challenge in the development of a conjunctive use program. EMWD has spent the past 5 years and $1.8 million in an attempt to obtain a permit for an expanded recharge program in the San Jacinto riverbed. The proposed approval after 5 years from Fish and Wildlife Service is completely unworkable and will cause the project to be terminated. A chronology of our environmental activities and permitting attempts was provided in my written testimony. Common threads in this history are a lack of technical knowledge on the part of the agency's staffs, frequent changes in staff contacts, continuous requests for more documents and information, delays and missed deadlines, and, most annoying, a lack of response in just simple communications like a return telephone call or an e-mail. Our recommendation is to create regional interagency task forces of Federal agencies, such as the EPA, the Corps of Engineers, Fish and Wildlife, and the Bureau that would meet on a quarterly basis to provide for regional coordination of projects where multiple Federal agencies are involved. Agency decisionmakers would be required to attend, and project proponents would have an opportunity to bring up their concerns and issues. And the last recommendation is ESA reform is currently being discussed in the Congress and is desperately needed. ESA reform needs to move forward. I thank you and your subcommittee for allowing me, on behalf of my board of directors, to provide this testimony, and I'll now respond to your questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Pack follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.023 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.024 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.025 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.026 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.027 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.028 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.029 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.030 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.031 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.032 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.033 Mr. Issa. Thank you. Mr. Pack, I think I will come right back to you. I actually have a very good memory. It is just short, so I will start with you first. Jason, just because that rings a bell, don't get too attached to it. I, too, am very disappointed in the lack of accountability and the lack of performance by sort of this combination of the Corps of Engineers and Fish and Wildlife, and I think you touched on it very well. But when you talked about having a task force, if I understood correctly--and I am not trying to put words in your mouth. But I mean, the failure that we have now is strictly the absence of accountability, absence of a mandate either to the Corps or to Fish and Wildlife. If I understand correctly, what you would like to see is one individual or accountable agency that would be responsible for timelines and, in fact, for the completeness of a request rather than, as I understand it, an infinite amount of, if you answer a question, then 6 months later, they come up with a new one. I know I am putting a lot in, but is that pretty much what you are trying to avoid? Mr. Pack. That may be one way to accomplish that, sir. But one of the agencies is usually the lead in the environmental permitting process. We started out with Fish and Wildlife. After about 3 years without any progress, based on a recommendation, the Corps of Engineers took over as lead under a 404 permit. The problem is that even the agencies, in our case, the Corps had identified our project as their No. 1 priority and communicated that to the Fish and Wildlife. Fish and Wildlife never responded even to the head of the regional Corps office, and much less to me. So I think there's--they all need to be in a room, and they need to be the principal decisionmakers, not the staff. We need to be able to have a forum somewhere with all the participating agencies that we can bring these issues up, and we can discuss where we haven't made progress. Mr. Issa. I want to be very clear on this point because throughout my district and my experience, that has been one of the problems, Fish and Wildlife more than the Corps. But the bottom line is that you don't get to the decisionmaker normally. Even when you ask for a meeting, the person they send is the person who is going to get back to you. And when they do get back to you, it is someone saying no or coming up with a creative new answer. If I understand correctly, you are calling for as often as quarterly meetings that would include the decisionmakers to make sure that, in fact, the project stayed on schedule? Is that roughly what you would like to see? Mr. Pack. That's a proposal. It doesn't necessarily have to be quarterly, but it has to be frequently. And in our case, we're trying to meet our own obligations to the State of California for a $5 million grant that we've been awarded for this project. And we've had to extend the timing of that grant twice because of the failure to obtain the permits. Mr. Issa. I would be remiss if, as a Californian, I didn't ask you to contrast Fish and Wildlife versus Fish and Game. [Laughter.] Mr. Pack. Actually---- Mr. Issa. Sorry, Tony. No easy questions here. Mr. Pack. No. Fish and Game sometimes is difficult to deal with, but I have access to the people there, and I have my phone calls returned. In fact, we're working--we have, for many years, provided recycled water to the San Jacinto Wildlife Refuge, and we are expanding that project four times to provide additional water storage for us. The cooperation in that particular project from Fish and Game has been good. Mr. Issa. Excellent. Mr. Peltier, Mr. Kucinich alluded to taking water from a fifth of the water on the face of the Earth, which lies in the Great Lakes. Is that something you are aware of impending? Mr. Peltier. No, sir. Mr. Issa. OK. I am just checking. I won't ask you to elaborate. Mr. Peltier. I won't even joke about it. Mr. Issa. OK. Fair enough. Dennis and I, by the way, are both native Clevelanders, so I just had to get that one in for my mom. However, I would like to ask each of you to comment, because we have talked about California, and we will continue to stay on it mostly. But I think, particularly from Mr. Peltier, Florida. One of our members of this subcommittee who isn't here because she has her own chair that she is presently in--Florida is a place that has a lowering water table and the intrusion of salt water. How do you view conjunctive use relative to regions outside California and Florida, as an example, if you can include it? Mr. Peltier. The most relevant thing I can bring to the table in the situations in Florida is that is a great place for the U.S. Geological Survey to deploy its scientific resources to inform the decisionmakers. We don't have a water management--Interior doesn't have a water management role, per se. But the science behind making conjunctive use work in holding back sea water and so forth is essential to make sure that any investment is, indeed, a wise investment. And---- Mr. Issa. Please. Mr. Peltier [continuing]. Might I comment on Tony's concerns? Nobody will give me permission to talk on behalf of the Fish and Wildlife Service, so I'm a little bit limited in responding to him in that regard. But I did, when I got an advance copy of his testimony, read it and provided it to Fish and Wildlife Service management and had discussion with them about it. So one--one accomplishment has already occurred, which is getting on the screen of management that we got a problem--or they have a problem here. I will be pleased to continue to try and facilitate some dialog and discussion between Tony and the service because any citizen can listen to him and say that doesn't sound like the way we want government to work. I don't know all the facts and details, but--so I don't want to dis the Fish and Wildlife Service, but I'll try to see what I can do to help. Mr. Issa. Well, I certainly appreciate it. The Fish and Wildlife obviously has an important role. This committee and other committees in the Congress rely heavily on their providing real protection for not just fish and wildlife, but, in fact, for endangered and potentially endangered species and a maintenance of a lifestyle that American people count on us for. I also don't want to throw them under the bus unnecessarily. However, when we look at the availability of both surface and ground water, it is one of those areas in which we are supposed to be on the same side. We are supposed to agree to the beneficial effects. Often, we agree to it in principle, and in the case of another project that I have in another part of my district, you end up with a water project that, in fact, is now breeding birds, which is fine, except it is supposed to be a levee to prevent flooding. So we often find some very unintended consequences. To that extent, and maybe perhaps beyond Fish and Wildlife for a moment, are there Federal actions, policies, or regulations that inhibit or deter local adoption of conjunctive water management? I could probably look at each of you, and from three different places on the totem pole, you could answer that. Mr. Peltier. Sure. There are a suite of environmental laws and regulations that are designed to make sure that if people want to propose an infrastructure development, a project, that the values and goals of the Clean Water Act, the Endangered Species Act, etc., are taken into account and accounted for. And then some of those could have an inhibiting impact. There is, however, also a great desire within Reclamation and in the GS to partner up with folks and make progress because the challenges associated with limited water supply have the potential for great economic impact. It's the kind of the mission of the agencies to be a helpful partner. So there's a little of both there, I would say. Mr. Issa. Well, of course, for Interior, if you are going to--speaking as a Californian--if you are going to play Solomon with the Colorado River water allocation, we definitely think we ought to all be working together. Joseph. Mr. Grindstaff. Yes, I want to agree with a lot of what both my co-panelists have said. Mr. Issa. By the way, this is not one of those in which controversy is required. It often occurs, but we actually don't demand it as a condition of your being on the panel. Mr. Grindstaff. Oh, good. Good, because I don't think this will be controversial, although my most recent assignment in the last few months has been CALFED. And CALFED was built on, first, trying to get agencies to work together. And for those that don't know, 15 years ago, California Delta was dysfunctional because the agencies couldn't get together and couldn't develop a plan. We have in fact, developed a plan that hasn't been perfectly successful, but we do have people talking to one another and have a process that I think over time, with probably lots of money, will make a real difference. I very much support the suggestion by Tony that it's important to have decisionmakers come together and discuss issues because, in the end, we all have to balance the different responsibilities that are out there. And you can't do that by just saying, ``Here's a rule, and here's a rule.'' If we followed all of the rules, many--you would find that many of them conflict. It is the responsibility of administrators, at least at a high level, to try and see how do we live within the rules, but also accomplish the major objective that we have, which is to make this a better place for our citizens to live. Mr. Issa. Thank you. Mr. Pack. A couple of points, and I want to acknowledge, Jason, that the local head of the Fish and Wildlife did contact me. I had informed him that I was going to testify and told him basically what I intended to say. And also the regional director received a copy of the testimony ahead of time. And we're proposing now, the three of us, to get together and see if we can work out some kind of mutual solution to this issue. On the issue of Federal regulations, I'm a little puzzled why we start with the same Federal/Nation-wide regulations, and they end up so differently interpreted in different places. Jason, you mentioned Florida. I was lucky to live in St. Petersburg for several years while I was stationed with the U.S. Central Command, and we had in my development, we all used recycled water for landscaping for our entire yard. This was in the mid 1980's, and there never was any issue at all. And of course, recycled water did percolate into the ground and became a major source of natural recharge. In California, California has been very slow to move to tertiary--to use of recycled water for residential irrigation. They're just beginning. There's been a couple of projects completed, and we have two projects in my district underway right now. I think California has been a little more conservative in interpreting the same rules and regulations. And even we see that on the State and local--between the State--between the local regional water quality control boards. There's a vast difference in the way that they interpret and the way they work with the agencies, just between two regional boards. Mr. Issa. Tony, if you could, for the record, give a rough ratio in California, because we are an interesting place, from the standpoint of our use outside the home versus inside the home, in those communities that already have it, what the quantity of this not potable water consumption is versus the interior drinkable water, wash your clothes and your dishes with it water? How big a part of the equation that can be if we were to move to dividing our water throughout California? Mr. Pack. I'm not sure I understood your question, but 40 to 50 percent of all water use is used outside the home is for irrigation. In the State of California, virtually none of that on a residential basis is recycled water. On large landscapes, we've been very aggressive in moving ahead with recycled water use, and we're now the fourth-largest user of recycled water in the State of California, following only Los Angeles, Orange County, and large cities. Mr. Issa. All right, and I want to commend you for that. The reason I asked the question, as confusing as it might have been, is that we are dealing with 40 to 50 percent of the water that we presently go through additional treatment, chlorinate, deal with lines that have to be maintained and kept clean. Concerns about lead, arsenic, all kinds of other substances, even in microscope amounts--or parts per billion amounts--on twice as much water as we would if, in fact, California over a period of time adopted a two water supply use. Then that would be fair to say? Mr. Pack. Yes, sir. Mr. Issa. You can tell I am not only thrilled with what you are doing in Riverside County, but I am hoping that California sees that as a way to dramatically reduce the amount of chemicals and cost that we put into our water supply. One thing that I don't think we have touched on was the role of conjunctive use in habitat projects. We talked about Fish and Wildlife and Fish and Game. But where do you see the potentials or do you see potentials where conjunctive use can also add to potential habitat in the projects? Mr. Grindstaff. Looks like I get this one. Mr. Issa. You get the whole State of California here. Mr. Grindstaff. The whole State of California. Conjunctive use is really--in the first place, the places where you can store water are typically places where we've pumped the ground water table down. So when you add water to the ground water table, you are naturally providing more water for habitat, and that can make a significant difference directly overhead. And typically, if you're next to a stream, then you're going to have water flowing out, and that's going to help provide year-round flow to that stream. That's a critical thing over the long term as a critical way to help provide water for habitat. It is a significant benefit when we develop those programs. And when we evaluate, as a State, when we give a grant to Tony or to any other entity, that's one of the things that we look for is: have we incorporated that value into the program as we move ahead? In most cases, where we develop a program, they have. That is one of the benefits that we receive. Mr. Issa. I am going to probably close with one last question, but it again goes to Mr. Kucinich, who couldn't remain. He seemed, in his opening remarks, to have considerable concern for ground water contamination, the other potential problems with--Joseph, you were pretty good at saying it can be a factor. I am not, by any means, experienced as an engineer in any of this. But I do own a swimming pool, and I have a filter. The filter becomes pretty useless if you simply continue to use it to filter forever. But, in fact, you can back-flush it after you run the back-flow, essentially sending down to, in my case, the ocean in San Diego. The water, you, in fact, have a filter that can be reused again. How does that work or does it work as part of the consideration when we are using the ground table and you potentially, let us say, get a high salt content over time, something along that line? Are there factors where, in fact, there is some similarity, and you can manage the ground as a filter? Mr. Grindstaff. From my perspective, one of the great benefits of conjunctive management is that you can improve ground water quality, and you have to design that in. You have to think about that when you're starting. But the solution to poor water quality is to not just leave it in the ground and let the contaminant, whatever it is, buildup there. The solution is to get it out of the ground. And over time, the best way to do that, typically, is to pump the water out and treat it and remove the contaminant. So whether in Orange County, they're doing the ground water replenishment system, where they're dealing with salt by putting virtually salt-free water into the ground water table, and they're going to reduce the TDS of their ground water table significantly. Or if it's a program where in the Chino Basin, they're putting recycled water into the basin at a higher TDS level, but at the bottom end of the basin, they're pumping it out and treating it and removing all of the excess salt. Over time, they remove much more salt than they put in. So they're improving the water quality. I think it's a key element, and there are issues. But they are certainly the kinds of things that you can address. In fact, I think it provides an economic incentive, if done right, to clean up the ground water. So that Tony has an interest in maintaining quality in that basin and improving that basin because he's putting more water in. So I'm--you can tell I'm an unabashed supporter. Mr. Issa. Go ahead, Tony. Mr. Pack. I would almost echo what Joe has said. In the Menifee/Romoland/Perris/Moreno valley--that entire valley basin there--the ground water levels are rising because many of the agricultural users have left. And as that has risen, it is going into the Vatos, and it is picking up contaminants. But it also is four to five times more saltier than we're allowed to serve as drinking water. So we've been developing an extensive well conveyance and desalination system in that area. We have two plants up and running now and a third under design. And we're actually removing all the salts and sending them down through the SARI line to the Pacific Ocean. We're not only preventing further contamination as the ground water levels rise, but we're actually taking out the salts and replacing it with lower salinity water. Mr. Issa. Yes, Jason. Mr. Peltier. Yes. The U.S. Geological Survey will be--is scheduled, anyway, to release a report. It's kind of a national survey of volatile organic compounds found in ground water across the United States later this month. I think, you know, it's safe to say that we find VOCs a lot, not, however, at levels--very, very rarely at levels which are of concern, but they're there. You have hit on something, that the re-injection or the percolation of chlorinated water back into the--in the ground water basin has implications, and we need to be mindful of them. Because the notion of what a gallon of gasoline can do to an aquifer is real. So I think that's part of those things that some might view an impediment. Others with responsibility for protecting water resources would look at as that's part of our role and responsibility in making sure that future generations have the benefit of a good water supply. Mr. Issa. I want to thank you all. I am going to revise and extend in one sense because you brought up gasoline. California is very concerned about the legacy of MTBE. We continue to have, to be honest, a fertilizer is not an insignificant contamination, and I am always befuddled to realize that fertilizer into the ground water is more of a problem in residential areas than it is agricultural areas. It is always amazing. We assume it is farms when, in fact, it is sod as often as not. Is it fair to say--I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I am almost doing that--is it fair to say that in all cases, active management of the water table, including conjunctive use, gives us an opportunity to do more about taking out MTBE or other contaminants than, in fact, not doing it? That there is no case, the reverse of it, there is no case in which by definition we are better off not doing, injecting anything into the ground table, dealing with the ground table and just hoping that it goes away? Mr. Peltier. I'm really tempted to--my degree is in agriculture, and my minor is in economics. It's not in geohydrology or geochemistry. I don't want to answer your question. I would say---- Mr. Issa. But you were glad I defended the farmer on his fertilizer, weren't you? Mr. Peltier. I would say the simple answer to your absolute question is, no, it's not always true. Because nothing is, in my experience, always true. There is always exceptions. Mr. Issa. Didn't I say generally? I could have the record read back, and I guarantee that they will read it back the way I want it to. [Laughter.] Generally? Mr. Peltier. Generally. Mr. Issa. Thank you. Joseph. Mr. Grindstaff. Active management, I think, is always better. But that doesn't mean that there aren't cases where, for example, you have a concentrated plume of a contaminant, where it is not better to treat that plume without putting water in there and spreading it further. I think you have to look at those issues on a case-by-case basis. Mr. Issa. OK. Tony. Mr. Pack. The bottom line really is there isn't any more surface water. We've got to use conjunctive use, desalination, recycled water. We've got to go to all these options to meet the future demands. You really don't have a choice not to use ground water, and like Joe says, you manage it, and you look to what you're treating. In many cases, treatment is a function of how much money you want to spend. Mr. Issa. Well, you have completed the record very well for us. I thank you for doing it in a timely fashion. The record will remain open for at least 10 legislative days so that you may add any comments that you think of, things that you want to revise and extend with, and so that Members that will have an opportunity to put their comments or questions in. And once again, I thank you all for your presence. This meeting is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 2:55 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] [Additional information submitted for the hearing record follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.034 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.035 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.036 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.037 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.038 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] T7514.039