[Senate Hearing 113-838]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 113-838
EXAMINING ACCESS AND SUPPORTS FOR SERVICE MEMBERS AND VETERANS IN
HIGHER EDUCATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION,
LABOR, AND PENSIONS
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
ON
EXAMINING ACCESS AND SUPPORTS FOR SERVICE MEMBERS AND VETERANS IN
HIGHER EDUCATION
__________
MAY 22, 2014
__________
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Pensions
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COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR, AND PENSIONS
TOM HARKIN, Iowa, Chairman
BARBARA A. MIKULSKI, Maryland LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee
PATTY MURRAY, Washington MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming
BERNARD SANDERS (I), Vermont RICHARD BURR, North Carolina
ROBERT P. CASEY, JR., Pennsylvania JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia
KAY R. HAGAN, North Carolina RAND PAUL, Kentucky
AL FRANKEN, Minnesota ORRIN G. HATCH, Utah
MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado PAT ROBERTS, Kansas
SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska
TAMMY BALDWIN, Wisconsin MARK KIRK, Illinois
CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut TIM SCOTT, South Carolina
ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts
Derek Miller, Staff Director
Lauren McFerran, Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel
David P. Cleary, Republican Staff Director
(ii)
C O N T E N T S
__________
STATEMENTS
THURSDAY, MAY 22, 2014
Page
Committee Members
Sanders, Hon. Bernard, a U.S. Senator from the State of Vermont.. 1
Burr, Hon. Richard, a U.S. Senator from the State of North
Carolina....................................................... 3
Baldwin, Hon. Tammy, a U.S. Senator from the State of Wisconsin.. 4
Franken, Hon. Al, a U.S. Senator from the State of Minnesota..... 4
Murphy, Hon. Christopher, a U.S. Senator from the State of
Connecticut.................................................... 28
Warren, Hon. Elizabeth, a U.S. Senator from the State of
Massachusetts.................................................. 31
Casey, Hon. Robert P., Jr., a U.S. Senator from the State of
Pennsylvania................................................... 34
Witnesses
Starks, Lauren Thompson, Senior Policy Advisor, Office of the
Under Secretary, Department of Education, Washington, DC....... 5
Prepared statement........................................... 6
Langdon, Thomas L., Director, State Liaison and Educational
Opportunity, Under Secretary of Defense, Personnel and
Readiness, Office of the Deputy Under Secretary of Defense for
Military, Community, and Family Policy, Alexandria, VA......... 8
Prepared statement........................................... 9
Hubbard, William, Vice President of External Affairs, Student
Veterans of America, Washington, DC............................ 12
Prepared statement........................................... 13
Carlson, David, Coordinator of Student Veteran Services,
University of Vermont, Burlington, VT.......................... 16
Prepared statement........................................... 17
Rhinehardt, Kimrey, Vice President of Federal Relations,
University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC.................. 19
Prepared statement........................................... 20
(iii)
EXAMINING ACCESS AND SUPPORTS FOR SERVICE MEMBERS AND VETERANS IN
HIGHER EDUCATION
----------
THURSDAY, MAY 22, 2014
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:03 a.m. in
room SD-430, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Bernie
Sanders, presiding.
Present: Senators Sanders, Harkin, Casey, Franken, Baldwin,
Murphy, Warren, and Burr.
Opening Statement of Senator Sanders
Senator Sanders. Good morning.
Thank you all for coming, and I want to extend a special
thanks to our panelists who have a whole lot to say on a very
important issue.
I want to thank, for a moment, Chairman Harkin, for
inviting me to chair this Health, Education, Labor, and
Pensions committee roundtable today, and I am pleased to be
joined by Senator Burr, Senator Baldwin, and others, I suspect
will be coming.
The Department of Defense estimates that approximately
250,000 to 300,000 service members will separate annually over
the next 4 years. That is more than 1 million brave men and
women transitioning back to civilian life.
As Chairman of the Senate Veterans' Affairs committee, and
Senator Burr is the ranking member of that committee, I think
we can tell you how important it is that these service members
get the tools they need for successful transition. I think we
can all agree that for many service members, getting an
education is a critical component of that transition.
Today's discussion will help us determine ways that the
Higher Education Act is helping us achieve those goals, and
find areas where there are problems, and where we can make
improvements.
Today, the unemployment rate for veterans who served after
9/11 is higher than the unemployment rate for nonveterans. The
Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that as of April 2014, the
unemployment rate for post-9/11 veterans was 6.8 percent. In
reality, if you factor in people who are working part-time when
they want to work full-time, that number is probably higher.
We are making progress in lowering those numbers and a
major contributing factor has been the post-9/11 G.I. bill,
which has gone further to support student veterans than any of
its predecessors. And I consider it to be a landmark piece of
legislation in helping something like 1 million veterans and
their families.
Since 2009, the V.A. has paid more than 1 million post-9/11
beneficiaries more than $40 billion. This is a significant
piece of legislation. In 2013, it was one of the largest of the
Federal Government's education programs. The V.A. estimates the
number of beneficiaries will continue to grow.
To support those veterans using this benefit, and to ensure
that they get the most out of it, V.A. has expanded its
VetSuccess On Campus programs to 94 locations around the
country. VetSuccess counselors are V.A. employees who work on
college campuses and provide a range of services that
holistically address the needs of student veterans as they
integrate into college life from adjustment counseling, to
vocational testing, to career counseling. These counselors also
assist veterans with disability accommodations and provide
referrals for health services through V.A. medical centers,
community-based outpatient clinics or vet centers.
Despite its success, there are still aspects of the post-9/
11 G.I. bill that can be improved. In fact, to help keep costs
manageable for student veterans, I introduced legislation,
along with Senator Burr, that would require public colleges and
universities to provide certain recently discharged service
members the in-State tuition rates. This legislation is
included as a provision of the pending bill S. 1982, the
Comprehensive Veterans Health and Benefits Military Retirement
Pay Restoration Act.
Veterans often choose to begin their education immediately
following separation from the military, making the university
campus a primary entry point into civilian society. This can be
a mixed blessing, as veterans are often nontraditional students
whose attention is divided between having a family, maintaining
a home, and working a full-time job.
Fortunately in addition to V.A., there are also things that
schools can and are doing to assist veterans during this
stressful time. However, the traditional higher education
system has only just begun to accommodate the needs of
nontraditional students. Institutions must learn how to best
accommodate unique issues facing our military and veteran
students including students who can unexpectedly be called to
active duty and must interrupt their coursework for unknown
lengths of time.
In addition to these unique challenges, I am concerned that
active duty service members and student veterans are suffering
the consequences of a continued failure by some corporations to
comply with the protections guaranteed to them in Federal law.
I, along with many other members of this committee, was
deeply troubled last week when it was revealed that the
Department of Justice had filed a lawsuit and proposed
settlement alleging Sallie Mae violated the rights of
approximately 60,000 service members by failing to comply with
provisions of the Servicemembers Civil Relief Act.
The Veterans' Affairs committee held a hearing on this
issue last year, and I will echo my comments. We must continue
to improve education and outreach on the protections of the
SCRA. Industry must redouble its efforts to improve the
compliance with the Act. And finally, aggressive enforcement of
these protections must continue when violations occur.
I firmly believe that the brave men and women serving our
country should not be subjected to the types of behavior we
have seen from some in the private sector. These continuing
violations are completely unacceptable and that behavior must
cease.
Let me conclude by saying that what I hope we can
accomplish today is to foster a productive conversation about
how schools are meeting the needs of veterans and service
members, what more can be done to ensure veterans are not
putting themselves into financial trouble in order to get an
education and, ultimately identify what this committee, and the
Veterans committee by extension, can do to assist with these
efforts.
I believe we have the right people here to answer these
questions. I want to thank all of you for being here, and I
look forward to a productive discussion.
Senator Burr.
Statement of Senator Burr
Senator Burr. Thank you, Senator Sanders, and thanks to
Chairman Harkin and Ranking Member Alexander for giving us the
opportunity to preside over this hearing.
The series of Higher Education Act reauthorization hearings
have been bipartisan in nature and extremely informative for
the committee as we undertake a rewrite of our Nation's higher
education laws. I applaud Senator Harkin and Senator Alexander
for their commitment to these hearings and to the comedy with
which they have both handled this.
North Carolina is home to almost 800,000 veterans making my
State one of the largest homes for veterans in the country. We
take pride in that status, but also in the fact that a large
percentage of those veterans choose to stay for our high
quality colleges and universities.
Today, we will hear from Kimrey Rhinehardt, vice president
of Federal Relations at the University of North Carolina Chapel
Hill or the University of North Carolina. The UNC System,
through its UNC SERVES initiative, has become a model for the
country for how a large university system can integrate
veterans returning from service into the college setting in a
way that caters to their individual needs, but also provides an
environment that enhances their opportunity for completion.
It is important to keep in mind how unique today's veteran
and service member students actually are. Recent data indicates
62 percent are first in their family to attend college compared
to 43 percent for nonveteran civilian students. They also tend
to be much older and an average age of 33 compared to their
civilian peers 22.
These students tend to commute to school, carry a full-time
job, have dependents, which all makes the circumstances
different and worth a college or a university's consideration
when providing on-campus services.
Additionally, as troops return from Iraq and Afghanistan,
postsecondary institutions are facing the largest influx of
veterans on their campus in generations. Higher education has a
role to play in ensuring these heroes have an opportunity to
succeed on their campus. I am proud of UNC's success in this
regard. And I urge my colleagues to listen carefully to the
good things happening in my State that can inform best
practices for all States.
With that, I hope that today's roundtable provides a robust
conversation about these issues and I look forward to hearing
from a great panel of witnesses. I welcome them all.
Thank you.
Senator Sanders. Thank you, Senator Burr.
Senator Baldwin.
Statement of Senator Baldwin
Senator Baldwin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am delighted that you have held this hearing today. and I
very much look forward to having a conversation with our
witnesses.
It is of the utmost importance that our warriors are able
to work toward their education goals while actively serving and
once they return from the battlefield. Leaving school with
significant student loan debt is a reality for too many
Americans, but it is a particularly acute problem for our
veterans, and this is unacceptable. We have to do everything in
our power to ensure that our service members and veterans have
the financial, social, and emotional support needed to succeed.
Again, thank you for convening us. Thank you to our Ranking
Member, and I look forward to the discussion that will ensue.
Senator Sanders. Thank you.
Senator Franken.
Statement of Senator Franken
Senator Franken. I want to thank the witnesses for being
here and I want to thank, you, Senator Sanders for all your
work on veterans issues; thank you, Senator Burr.
There are a lot of issues here that we will get into today,
one of which is the skills that are--and I know Dr. Langdon,
you speak this in your testimony--the skills that our veterans
come to their college careers already having, and many have
worked in communications and very high tech communications in a
war zone, and then do not get any kind of credit for that. And
I think that is among the issues that I discuss with veterans
who are in colleges in Minnesota.
There are a lot of other issues that we will get to today,
and I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this
hearing, and look forward to your testimony, and our
discussion.
Thank you.
Senator Sanders. Thank you very much, Senator Franken.
OK. We have a great panel. Let me begin by introducing
Lauren Thompson Starks, who serves as Senior Policy Advisor at
the U.S. Department of Education in the Office of the Under
Secretary.
While at the Department, she has worked on a range of
issues in higher education including interagency efforts to
support career readiness for veterans and service members, and
has worked with the V.A. to help redesign the Transition
Assistance Program.
Ms. Starks, welcome, and thanks for being here.
STATEMENT OF LAUREN THOMPSON STARKS, SENIOR POLICY ADVISOR,
OFFICE OF THE UNDER SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION,
WASHINGTON, DC
Ms. Thompson Starks. Senator Sanders, Burr, and members of
the committee.
Thank you for the opportunity to participate in this
roundtable. I am pleased to share how the U.S. Department of
Education, working together with our partner agencies, is
contributing to efforts that support the postsecondary success
of service members, veterans, and their families.
I would like to focus my remarks on the Department of
Education's initiatives designed to increase access to quality
and affordable educational institutions, remove barriers to
degree completion, and foster practices that strengthen campus
cultures for student, veteran, and service members' success.
Following the President's August 2011 call to action for a
comprehensive Federal approach to supporting a career-ready
military, we have collaborated with the Departments of Defense,
Veterans Affairs, Labor and other agencies on a redesign of the
Transition Goals Plans Success program.
Transition GPS is strengthening and expanding the
information, counseling, and support available to transitioning
service members. The Department of Education is providing
expertise in areas such as postsecondary access, affordability,
Federal financial aid, and adult learning strategies. We have
contributed to the development and evaluation of modules on
accessing higher education, and the career and technical
training modules, and we have also continued to advise on
program direction and assessments.
Our core efforts also include providing our agency partners
with transparency tools and resources to help students and
families garner information about postsecondary access and
costs, identify programs that meet their individual needs, and
select among quality institutions and available Federal student
aid options.
Interagency coordination is not only helping to bridge the
gap between military service and educational opportunities, but
it is also helping to remove barriers to degree completion once
students are enrolled.
In August 2013, the Departments of Defense, Education, and
Veterans Affairs formed the Academic Credentialing Task Force.
The Task Force is dedicated to increasing awareness of
promising practices and policies that promote awarding academic
credit at postsecondary institutions for prior military
training and experience.
It is also facilitating the ability of these institutions
to understand how military training and experience is relevant
to their programs of study. And through these efforts, is
supporting degree completion and career readiness among our
Nation's veterans.
The Department is also collaborating with our agency
partners to support the implementation of the Principles of
Excellence Executive Order No. 13607. These Principles are
designed to ensure that service members, veterans, and their
families are offered quality educational opportunities, and
have the educational and financial information needed to make
informed choices.
The Principles ask educational institutions to do more to
ensure support services for service members and veterans, which
ultimately help foster learning communities where all students
can thrive.
The Principles also signal the Administration's commitment
to strengthening accountability, and enforcement, and oversight
within Federal education benefit programs. They are enhancing
transparency to facilitate educational comparisons through
tools like the Financial Aid Shopping Sheet and are also
enabling mechanisms that empower students and families to get
the support they need and deserve such as the new centralized
student complaint system.
As part of efforts to build on the Executive order, the
Departments of Education and Veterans Affairs in conjunction
with more than 100 education experts convened to review
approaches that could be scaled and replicated to foster
veterans' success on campus. The result was the 8 Keys to
Success, a voluntary effort to promote best practices with the
goal of fostering postsecondary environments that are committed
to veterans' success, and to also ensure that veterans have
access to the information they need to make decisions
concerning their benefits.
The 8 Key offer concrete steps postsecondary institutions
can take to assist veterans and service members who are
transitioning and assist them in completing their college
degrees and obtaining career-ready skills.
The strategies include a variety of steps including
creating a culture of connectedness on campus, using uniform
sets of data tools to collect and track information relating to
veterans, and also collaborating with local communities and
organizations.
In closing, the Department of Education will continue
working with our agency partners as we strengthen the ladders
of opportunity for our veterans and service members to reach
their educational and career goals.
Thank you very much for this opportunity to highlight this
information, and I look forward to today's discussion with you
and fellow roundtable participants.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Starks follows:]
Prepared Statement of Lauren Thompson Starks
Chairman Sanders, Ranking Member Burr, and members of the
committee, thank you for the opportunity to participate in this
roundtable. I am pleased to share how the U.S. Department of Education
(ED), working together with our partner agencies, is contributing to
efforts that support the postsecondary success of service members,
veterans, and their families.
I would like to focus my remarks on ED's initiatives designed to
increase access to quality and affordable educational institutions,
remove barriers to degree completion, and foster practices that
strengthen campus cultures for student veteran and service member
success.
federal interagency collaboration and technical assistance to improve
access to quality and affordable educational institutions, and
streamline degree completion
Following the President's August 2011 call to action for a
comprehensive Federal approach to supporting a career-ready military,
we have collaborated with the Departments of Defense, Veterans Affairs,
Labor, and other agencies on a redesign of the ``Transition Goals,
Plans, Success'' (Transition GPS) program, which strengthens and
expands information, counseling, and support available to transitioning
service members.
ED is providing expertise in areas such as postsecondary access,
affordability, Federal financial aid, and adult learning strategies. We
have contributed to the development and evaluation of modules on
accessing higher education and career and technical training, and have
continued to advise on program direction and assessments.
Our core efforts also include providing our agency partners with
transparency tools and resources to help students and families garner
information about postsecondary access and costs, identify programs
that meet their individual needs, and select among quality institutions
and available Federal student aid options.
Interagency coordination is not only helping to bridge the gap
between military service and educational opportunities, but it is also
helping to remove barriers to degree completion once students are
enrolled.
In August 2013, the Departments of Defense, Education, and Veterans
Affairs formed the Academic Credentialing Task Force. The Task Force is
dedicated to increasing awareness of promising practices and policies
that promote awarding academic credit at postsecondary institutions for
prior military training and experience, facilitating the ability of
these institutions to understand how prior military training and
experience is relevant to their programs of study, and supporting
degree completion and career-readiness among our Nation's veterans.
supporting the implementation of the ``principles of excellence''
executive order
Executive Order 13607, ``Establishing Principles of Excellence for
Educational Institutions Serving Service Members, Veterans, Spouses,
and Other Family Members,'' (Principles) offers principles designed to
ensure that service members, veterans, and their families are offered
quality educational opportunities and have the educational and
financial information needed to make informed decisions. The Principles
ask educational institutions to do more to ensure support services for
service members and veterans, which ultimately helps foster learning
communities where all students can thrive.
The Principles signal the importance, to student consumers,
families, and institutions, of the Administration's commitment to
strengthening accountability, enforcement, and oversight within Federal
education benefit programs. They are enhancing transparency to
facilitate educational comparisons, through tools like the Financial
Aid Shopping Sheet, and are enabling mechanisms that empower students
and families to get the support they need and deserve in accessing
education benefits through the new centralized student complaint
system.
promoting best practices for veteran student success
As part of efforts to build on E.O. 13607, the Departments of
Education and Veterans Affairs, in conjunction with more than 100
education experts, convened to review approaches that could be scaled
and replicated to foster veterans' success on campus. The result was
the ``8 Keys to Success''--a voluntary effort to promote best practices
with the goal of fostering postsecondary environments that are
committed to veterans' success and to ensure that veterans have access
to the information they need to make informed decisions concerning
their Federal educational benefits.
The ``8 Keys'' offer concrete steps postsecondary institutions can
take in order to assist veterans and service members in transitioning
to postsecondary education, completing their college degrees, and
obtaining career-ready skills. The strategies include creating a
culture of connectedness on campus, coordinating and centralizing
campus efforts for all veterans, collaborating with local communities
and organizations to align services and supports for veterans,
implementing an early alert system, utilizing a uniform set of data
tools to collect and track information relating to veteran students
(i.e., retention and degree completion), and developing systems to
ensure sustainability of effective practices.
ED will continue working with our agency partners as we strengthen
ladders of opportunity for our veterans and service members to reach
their educational and career goals. Thank you for the opportunity to
highlight this information about key Department initiatives, and I look
forward to today's conversation with you and fellow roundtable
participants.
Senator Sanders. Thank you very much, Ms. Starks.
Dr. Thomas Langdon serves as director of State Liaison and
Educational Opportunity in the Office of the Under Secretary of
Defense for Personnel Readiness. In this role, he oversees the
Department of Defense's Tuition Assistance Program, the TAP
program, which allows nearly 280,000 service members to attend
college courses at little or no cost.
Dr. Langdon, thanks for being here.
STATEMENT OF THOMAS L. LANGDON, DIRECTOR, STATE LIAISON AND
EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY, UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, PERSONNEL,
AND READINESS, OFFICE OF THE DEPUTY UNDER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE
FOR MILITARY, COMMUNITY, AND FAMILY POLICY, ALEXANDRIA, VA
Mr. Langdon. Chairman Sanders, Senator Burr, and
distinguished members of the HELP committee.
It is an honor to be able to contribute to today's
discussion on the Department of Defense's voluntary education
program. My remarks will highlight several ways the DOD
provides oversight to facilitate service member education
success. First, just a little about me so you may better
understand my perspective.
I enlisted in the Air Force in March 1977 as a military
police officer. I spent nearly 29 years on active duty and I
was heavily involved with education, mine and others. Without
military tuition assistance and caring and competent counsel,
meeting my educational goals would have been difficult at best.
It is no exaggeration to say without the DOD voluntary
education program I would not be sitting before you today.
Over the past year, DOD has enhanced its programs and
services to ensure that service members have access to
education opportunities throughout their military careers.
Education helps grow leaders who will sustain our force
readiness and continue to make valuable contributions in the
support of our Nation.
For many, the decision to go to school is a complex one and
proper oversight by DOD and the services, education counseling,
and access to important information allows the service member
to make informed choices. DOD's programs attract a large
percentage of the eligible military population because they are
designed to meet the unique needs of the off-duty service
member.
Each year, approximately one-third of our service members
enroll in postsecondary coursework. Colleges and universities,
through an extensive network, deliver classroom instruction at
hundreds of military installations around the world and online
to an ever-
increasing percentage of our service members. During 2013, over
277,000 service members took more than 827,000 courses and
earned over 55,000 degrees and certificates.
Participation in DOD-supported voluntary education requires
a service member to visit an education center, either in-person
or online, through their services education portal. There are
approximately 200 DOD education sites worldwide.
At these centers, professional education counselors brief
service members on their education options, provide assistance
and develop an education plan, recommend tailored courses of
study to meet their education goals, and provide information on
financing to include DOD tuition assistance, grants, loans, or
other available funding options.
Over the past year, the Department's priority has been
implementing the requirements of the Executive Order 13607,
establishing principles of excellence. These efforts are part
of a robust interagency collaboration between the Consumer
Financial Protection Bureau, the Federal Trade Commission, the
Departments of Defense, Education, Veterans Affairs, and
Justice.
The initiatives include enhancements to the DOD Voluntary
Education Partnership Memorandum of Understanding that just was
issued on the 15th of May; the postsecondary education
complaint system and the development of the postsecondary
education outcome measures. In addition, DOD has participated
in interagency Military Credentialing and Licensing Task Force
which is dedicated to identifying, supporting, and sharing
strategies for institutions of higher education. One of the
major efforts is for a better understanding of the Joint
Services Transcript process.
Service members rely on DOD voluntary education programs to
help them attain their personal and professional goals, and it
is made possible because DOD and the entire Federal Government
recognize the high value of education programs supporting
military advancement and the successful transition of service
members to civilian workforce.
The Department remains committed to effectively delivering
voluntary education programs that meet the changing needs of
our service members.
I thank you for the opportunity to be here today, and I
look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Langdon follows:]
Prepared Statement of Thomas L. Langdon
Chairman Sanders, Ranking Member Burr, and distinguished members of
the HELP committee, it is an honor to be able to contribute to today's
discussion on the Department of Defense's (DoD) Voluntary Education
Program. I will highlight the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) between
DoD and individual institutions of higher learning and the new
interagency Postsecondary Education Complaint system.
The Department's Voluntary Education Program provides valuable
learning opportunities for servicemembers, contributing to enhanced
readiness of our forces. Education helps our servicemembers be better
Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines. Through education and
experience, using tuition assistance (TA), we grow leaders, who will
sustain our force readiness and continue to make valuable contributions
in support of our Nation. Allow me to share the profile of typical TA
users.
They work full-time and are part-time students;
They take an average of three courses per year and less
than 1 percent ever reach the $4,500 annual ceiling;
The majority complete their education after leaving the
military;
They attend multiple institutions and take about 7 years
to earn an Associates Degree;
They do not usually graduate from the school where they
took their first course;
They blend how they attend school between traditional
classroom and online (79 percent take some online courses);
They do not immediately seek employment upon earning their
degree; and
They have breaks in their education due to circumstances
such as deployments and transfer of duty station.
For many, the decision to go to school is a complicated one and
proper oversight by DoD and the Services, education counseling, and
access to important information allows servicemembers to make informed
choices. DoD programs are designed to meet the unique needs of the
military off-duty student and, therefore, attract a large percentage of
the eligible military population.
Approximately one-third of our servicemembers enroll in post-
secondary courses leading to undergraduate and graduate degrees or
certificates each year. Colleges and universities, through an extensive
network, deliver classroom instruction at hundreds of military
installations around the world and on-line, to an ever-increasing
percentage of our servicemember students. Additionally, servicemembers
can also earn college credits for learning that takes place outside the
traditional classroom through College Level Examination Program (CLEP)
testing and assessment of their military training.
DoD has increased its assistance over the last year through its
Voluntary Education programs and services, ensuring that opportunities
for learning continue to exist for servicemembers throughout their
military careers and preparing them for lifelong learning after they
leave the military.
oversight of military ta--facilitating service member success
Participation in DoD-supported Voluntary Education requires
servicemembers to visit an education center, either in person or on-
line through their Service education portal. There are approximately
200 DoD education sites worldwide, including contingency areas in
Afghanistan. At these centers, professional education counselors
present servicemembers with an extensive menu of options, provide
details about specific programs, recommend tailored courses of study
that meet servicemembers' goals, and provide information on education
financing, including information on the TA program, grants, loans and
other available funding options. Prior to using military TA,
servicemembers must establish an education goal and an education plan.
servicemembers, through their Service's education portal, request TA
for a course(s) outlined in their approved education plan, and an
education counselor reviews the servicemembers' education record and
education plan prior to granting approval.
Even with the financial support DoD provides, nearly all
servicemembers, and especially those taking graduate level courses,
incur out-of-pocket expenses. This gives each student a financial stake
in their success. Also, servicemembers failing to complete or receiving
an `F' in a course must reimburse DoD for the TA received for the
course, and servicemembers' failing to maintain a 2.0 undergraduate or
3.0 graduate grade point average (GPA), must pay for all courses until
they raise their GPA sufficiently.
oversight of military ta--ensuring quality education programs
Over the last year, the Department's priority was to finalize
implementation of our efforts consistent with Executive Order 13607:
Establishing Principles of Excellence for Educational Institutions
Serving Service Members, Veterans, Spouses and other Family Members.
This includes multiple initiatives, such as the launch of a centralized
online reporting system, enhancements to the DoD Voluntary Education
Partnership Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), and development of
postsecondary education outcome measures. All of these efforts are part
of a robust interagency collaboration among DoD and the Departments of
Education, Veterans Affairs, and Justice, along with the Consumer
Financial Protection Bureau and the Federal Trade Commission. These
agencies are working together to enable military students and their
families to make good educational choices using comprehensive
information about the available programs and institutions that offer
them.
The quality of education provided to our servicemembers is
essential to the Department, and underpinning this effort is DoD's
requirement that all post-secondary institutions participating in the
TA program, whether they are physically located on our installations or
elsewhere, be accredited by an accrediting body recognized by the U.S.
Department of Education. Currently, over 3,200 institutions with more
than 4,400 sub-campuses, have signed the DoD MOU. The new MOU was
published in the Federal Register on May 15, 2014, as part of Change 2
to Department of Defense Instruction (DoDI) 1322.25, and it requires
all participating institutions to adhere to the Principles of
Excellence as listed in Executive Order 13607:
Provides students with an education plan;
Informs students of the availability and eligibility of
Federal financial aid before arranging private student loans;
Ensures new course or program offerings are approved by
the institution's accrediting agency before student enrollment;
Allows servicemembers to be re-admitted to a program if
they are temporarily unable to attend class or have to suspend their
studies due to military requirements;
Provides a refund policy for military students consistent
with the refund policy for students using Department of Education
Federal student aid (Title IV); and
Designates a point of contact for academic and financial
advising.
DoD is also working on other education initiatives. The interagency
effort to identify postsecondary education outcome measures will
provide information on available educational programs to support
informed decisionmaking about educational choices, especially as they
relate to veterans and servicemembers. The Departments of Defense,
Education, and Veterans Affairs have worked together to propose a set
of outcome measures to capture important information on students'
experiences during school, upon completion of a degree or certificate,
and post-graduation, using existing administrative data.
DoD also participates in the interagency Military Credentialing and
Licensing Task Force. The President established this forum to identify
opportunities for servicemembers to earn civilian occupational
credentials and licenses without the need for additional training. The
Interagency Academic Credentialing Workgroup is dedicated to
identifying, supporting, and sharing strategies for institutions of
higher education to use when evaluating military training and
experience in order to award appropriate amounts of academic credit for
the skills and knowledge servicemembers gain through their service. For
example, we have developed multiple webinars for the education
community to help them better understand the Joint Service Transcript
(JST) and the American Education Council (ACE) evaluation process.
The JST provides documentary evidence to colleges and universities
of the professional military education, training, and occupation
experiences of servicemembers and veterans. JST is an official
transcript tool that validates and documents those courses and
occupations for servicemembers and veterans. From November 1, 2014
through April 7, 2014, 4,873 transcripts were requested and sent to
colleges and universities.
ACE's Military Evaluations program has reviewed and made college
credit recommendations for thousands of military courses since the
early 1940s and, in 1974, began the evaluation of military occupational
specialties. More than 2,200 higher education institutions recognize
the ACE course credit recommendations for granting credit to their
military students. The webinar sessions clarify the review process and
the quality measures that are used in determining credit
recommendations and increase the awareness, use, and benefit of the
JST.
The explanation of both the ACE evaluations and JST will be
included in the updated Transition GPS Accessing Higher Education
curriculum, which will communicate the transfer of academic credit and
military training to transitioning servicemembers. The goal was to
update portions of the Education part of the Transition Assistance
Program to better educate transitioning servicemembers on the proper
award of academic credit. While some postsecondary institutions have
active policies in place to award credit, the ultimate goal of the
workgroup is expanding the number of institutions with effective
military credit policies.
Finally, the Defense State Liaison activities have been integral to
facilitating change at the State level. As of May 15, 2014, 45 States
have passed legislation or an Executive order requiring their
educational institutions to evaluate military training and experience
toward the award of academic credit. In addition, 31 States have
enacted legislation regarding in-State tuition impacting newly
separating servicemembers.
dod oversight of military ta--preventing predatory practices
DoD has strengthened its policies regarding on-installation access
to our servicemembers. Institutions' access to military installations
is allowed only in order to provide education, guidance, and training
opportunities, and to participate in education fairs. Marketing firms
or companies that own and operate higher learning institutions do not
have access. Institutions must meet the following requirements:
Have a signed MOU with DoD;
Be chartered or licensed by the State government in which
the services will be rendered;
Be State-approved for the use of veteran's education
benefits;
Participate in title IV programs (eligible and
participating under Department of Education rules, students are
eligible for Federal support);
Be accredited by an accrediting body recognized by the
U.S. Department of Education; and
Have an on-base student population of at least 20 military
students.
On January 30, 2014, DoD along with agency partners--Veterans
Affairs, Education, Justice, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau,
and the Federal Trade Commission--launched the new Postsecondary
Education Complaint System (PECS). The online reporting system, part of
the Executive order on Principles of Excellence, is intended to help
ensure that students are equipped with comprehensive information to
make school and program choices that meet their educational goals. It
is designed to empower military students and their families to report
negative experiences with educational institutions and provide the
Federal Government the information it needs to identify and address
unfair, deceptive and misleading practices.
The initial reaction to the PECS has been overwhelmingly positive.
Within 24 hours of launch, the PECS received over 1,740 unique web page
views and 37 complaints. As of May 15, 2014, DoD has processed 146
complaints. DoD is committed to working with each educational
institution and student to reach a resolution that satisfies both
parties. Over 60 percent of the complaints are regarding DoD or
institutional processes or policies as opposed to substantiated
complaints against a school such as deceptive recruiting and marketing
practices. The complaint records and their resolutions are contained
within a centralized repository, the Consumer Sentinel Network, making
the information accessible by the Departments of Veterans Affairs,
Defense, and Education, all of whom review schools for compliance and
program eligibility, as well as the law enforcement agencies that would
prosecute any illegal practices. The inter-agency team is also engaged
in establishing servicemember and veteran outcome measures directed by
Executive Order 13607 that will assist in ensuring continued quality at
both the program and institution level. These measures will attempt to
determine performance through metrics such as retention rates,
persistence rates, and time-to-degree (or credential) completion.
conclusion
servicemembers rely on the DoD Voluntary Education Program to help
them become better Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, and citizens.
During fiscal year (FY) 2013, approximately $540,400,000 taxpayer
dollars supported 277,800 servicemembers who took 827,100 courses and
were awarded 55,700 degrees/certificates. This was possible because DoD
and the entire Federal Government are unified when it comes to placing
a high value on educational programs that support the professional and
personal development and the successful transition of servicemembers to
the civilian workforce. It is an honor and a privilege to work among a
team of professionals dedicated to providing our servicemembers and
their families with high-quality educational opportunities in pursuit
of their personal and professional goals. The Department of Defense
remains committed to effectively delivering voluntary education
programs that meet the changing needs of the military. Mr. Chairman,
this concludes my statement.
Senator Sanders. Dr. Langdon, thanks very much.
William Hubbard is the vice president of External Affairs
for the Student Veterans of America. Mr. Hubbard joined the
Marine Corps at age 17 and continues to serve with the 4th
Marine Logistics Group as a drilling reservist out of Joint
Base Anacostia-Bolling. He is a graduate of American University
where he studied international relations.
Mr. Hubbard, thanks very much for being here.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM HUBBARD, VICE PRESIDENT OF EXTERNAL
AFFAIRS, STUDENT VETERANS OF AMERICA, WASHINGTON, DC
Mr. Hubbard. Senator Sanders, Senator Burr, and esteemed
colleagues.
Thank you for having Student Veterans of America here today
to share our thoughts on examining access and supports for
service members and veterans in higher education. As the
premiere advocate for student veterans in higher education, it
is our privilege to share our on-the-ground perspective with
you today.
In 2008, veterans in colleges and universities across the
Nation came together to form SVA, using a network of peer to
peer relationships and determined to achieve beyond
expectations, these veterans applied years of hard learned
lessons in the service to the classroom, and they succeeded.
To begin, we believe it is important to outline how we
define success for student veterans. Success is when a student
veteran makes a well-informed educational decision, achieves
personal academic goals without incurring student loan debt,
and secures gainful employment that propels them forward in
their career aspirations.
First, consolidation of information on how to make the most
of the G.I. bill benefit is critical. This information could
potentially help veterans avoid wasting months of G.I. bill
benefits which may lead to veterans taking out unnecessary
loans. The V.A.'s G.I. bill Comparison Tool is a good example
of the kind of work we see as necessary.
Second, as veterans graduate across the country, we believe
that their debt burden will ultimately be the single largest
inhibiting factor to long-term success. As a contributing
factor to this debt, we remain concerned that some technical
and career colleges claim to offer credentials and
certifications, but students are not able to complete specific
exams due to a lack of proper accreditation leading to the loss
of valuable benefits and years of study.
There are different pieces to the puzzle that we must
identify for the student veteran to fully achieve their goals;
institutions, individuals, and communities. We refer to these
as the three pillars. When these are strong, student veteran
achievement is high. These pillars set veterans up for success
in the academic setting and after graduation.
With programs like the Department of Veterans Affairs, that
success on campus and support from postsecondary institutions,
veterans are operating in environments where they are prone to
excel. With the right tools and resources, SVA sees no limit to
what student veterans can achieve in higher education and
beyond.
When empowered with environmental factors for success, the
investment that America has made in the G.I. bill and its
veterans becomes an even clearer asset to the economy. By
increasing access to higher education and removing barriers to
degree attainment, we can set up our veterans for long-term
success.
We thank Senator Sanders, Senator Burr, and our present
colleagues for your time, attention, and devotion to the cause
of veterans in higher education.
As always, we welcome your feedback and questions on this
important topic.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hubbard follows:]
Prepared Statement of William Hubbard
Senator Sanders, Senator Burr and esteemed members of the HELP
Committee: Thank you for inviting Student Veterans of America (SVA) to
submit our thoughts on ``Examining Access and Supports for
Servicemembers and Veterans in Higher Education.'' As the premier
advocate for student veterans in higher education, it is our privilege
to share our on-the-ground perspective with you today.
In 2008, veterans in colleges and universities across the Nation
came together to form SVA. Using a network of peer-to-peer
relationships, and determined to achieve beyond expectations, these
veterans applied years of hard-learned lessons in the service to the
classroom, and they succeeded.
SVA's top priorities include improving access to higher education
and scaling effective services that empower student veterans to
graduate on time, with little-to-no student debt, while preparing
student veterans for fulfilling futures. We look forward to this
important conversation and hope to share the perspective of student
veterans in higher education with you today.
a look at the current landscape
Setting the Definition of ``Success''
To begin, we believe it is important to outline how we define
``success'' for student veterans. Success is when a student veteran
makes well-informed educational decisions, achieves personal academic
goals without incurring student loan debt, and secures gainful
employment that propels them forward in their career aspirations.
The Importance of Higher Education for Veterans
As quintessential nontraditional students, student veterans face a
myriad of challenges that most of their peers in the classroom do not;
they are generally older, more likely to have families, and often have
significant financial responsibilities not shared by most 18- to 22-
year-olds. However, unlike other nontraditional students, many veterans
deal with the added challenge of juggling academics with their
transition to higher education. In some cases, temporary withdrawals
from school to deploy or train are the norm for many National Guardsmen
or Reservists, which often elongates their path to completion or it can
put it on hold altogether.
Regardless of the challenges, it is clear that a postsecondary
degree or credential is critical for success in today's global economy.
Using data from the last fiscal year, the Bureau of Labor Statistics
illustrated the importance of higher education, as seen in Figure 1.
For those who achieved an associate's degree, unemployment dropped to
5.4 percent and for those with a bachelor's or greater, that drops even
further to 4 percent and below.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, U.S. Department of Labor,
``Earnings and unemployment rates by educational attainment'', http://
www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm (Access May 2, 2014)
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
increasing access to higher education
The Key Components of Consumer Awareness
The decision to pursue a degree in higher education can be daunting
for some, but recent developments like the Department of Veterans
Affairs' (VA) GI Bill Comparison Tool have made that process more
approachable. We continue to work with the VA to refine this tool so
future generations can access critical information to support their
decisionmaking process. We believe this is a good first step, but this
tool is not the complete solution. Further consolidation of information
on how to make the most of the GI bill benefit is necessary. This
information could potentially help veterans avoid wasting months of GI
bill benefits, which may lead to veterans taking out unnecessary loans.
As veterans graduate across the country, we believe that their debt
burden will ultimately be the single largest inhibiting factor to long-
term success. There is a common misconception that veterans who go to
school on the GI bill have a ``free ticket'', but we know this is
simply not true.
As an earned benefit, not only is it not free, it may not always
cover the full cost of an education. Some student veterans take longer
to complete their degree, due to being nontraditional students. In such
scenarios, student veterans likely take on additional loans to complete
or risk withdrawing short of graduation. While many veterans may not
have a clear understanding of how much their education benefits will
impact their overall cost of attendance, others face abusive and
misleading practices across sectors of education that can result in
undue and unnecessary debt burdens.
We remain concerned that some technical and career colleges claim
to offer credentials and certifications, but students are not able to
complete specific exams due to a lack of proper accreditation, leading
to the loss of valuable benefits and years of study. We applaud the
bipartisan efforts of the dozens of State Attorneys General working to
curb this practice among the worst offenders, and would like to work
with this committee and the Congress to improve the laws preventing
this despicable practice.
We also find that being able to access a full range of financial
data is critical for institutions to be able to effectively counsel
their students on their financial status, as well as for the individual
to have the highest level of consumer awareness. Greater awareness
allows student veterans to make informed choices that are aligned with
their personal career aspirations.
A Continued Fight for In-State Tuition
Many student veterans continue to be forced to pay out-of-State
tuition costs, despite being ``state-less'' as a direct result of their
military service. It is for this reason that the Veterans of Foreign
Wars, the American Legion, and SVA continue to ardently fight for in-
State tuition for all veterans at the State and Federal levels. Less
than half of all States offer in-State tuition for veterans and we
continue to press the importance of this issue as a top contributor to
education debt.\2\ We call on this group of leaders to continue to work
toward ending this unnecessary and unjust punishment for the transient
lifestyle in which our military is called to serve.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ Student Veterans of America, ``The Fight for In-State Tuition
for Veterans'', http://www.studentveterans.org/what-we-do/in-state-
tuition.html (Access May 2, 2014).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
supporting student veteran achievement
There are different pieces to the puzzle that must be identified
for the student veteran to fully achieve their goals. We refer to these
as the ``Three Pillars'' that contribute to student veteran success,
and we encourage this group of leaders and other researchers to focus
on them individually as well as collectively.
Pillar 1--Institutions: Institutional support for student
veterans is an important aspect of maintaining a strong pipeline of
successful veteran graduates. The ability of the college or university
to efficiently process student veteran benefits, transfer credits, or
assist in job placement, is of crucial importance to the success of
veterans. Flaws at this level, as well as unwelcoming or distrustful
academic or professional environments, continue to act as major
barriers to the success of some student veterans.
Pillar 2--Individuals: Establishing an environment for the
student veteran to fluidly interact with the institution and the
community is a determining factor in whether or not they will achieve
their goals. Those who do not feel welcome may not persist in their
studies.
Pillar 3--Communities: An established network across
various university offices, academic networks, and career services
enables the student veteran to make the transition from the campus to a
fulfilling career. This may start with the institution's outreach to
potential employers, but is ultimately the responsibility of all of us
to ensure that employers understand the strengths of veterans in the
workplace.
When the Three Pillars--institutions, individuals, and
communities--are strong, student veteran achievement is high. These
pillars set veterans up to succeed in an academic setting and after
graduation. With programs like the Department of Veterans Affairs'
``VetSuccess On Campus'' (VSOC), and support from postsecondary
institutions, veterans are operating in environments where they are
prone to excel.
our final thoughts
With the right tools and resources, SVA sees no limit to what
student veterans can achieve in higher education and beyond. When
empowered with environmental factors for success, the investment
America has made in the GI bill and its veterans becomes an even
clearer asset to our economy. By increasing access to higher education
and removing barriers to degree-attainment, we can set our veterans up
for long-term success.
We thank Senator Sanders, Senator Burr, and our present colleagues
for your time, attention, and devotion to the cause of veterans in
higher education. As always, we welcome your feedback and questions on
this important topic.
Senator Sanders. Mr. Hubbard, thank you very much for your
testimony.
David Carlson is the coordinator of Student Veteran
Services at the University of Vermont. Originally from
Burlington, VT, David served for 4 years in the U.S. Marine
Corps as an infantry assaultman from 2004 to 2008. He deployed
twice in support of operation Iraqi Freedom fighting in
Fallujah, Iraq in 2005 and Ramadi, Iraq in 2006 where he was
commended for his actions while under direct enemy fire.
After completing his military service, David enrolled at
the University of Vermont using the post-9/11 G.I. bill. David
was a cofounder of the Student Veterans organization on UVM's
campus and later served as the Vermont state director for
Student Veterans of America.
Mr. Carlson, thanks very much for being with us.
STATEMENT OF DAVID CARLSON, COORDINATOR OF STUDENT VETERAN
SERVICES, UNIVERSITY OF VERMONT, BURLINGTON, VT
Mr. Carlson. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Senator Burr,
members.
Respectfully, the University of Vermont is a public
research land grant university located in Burlington, VT. I am
the coordinator of Student Veteran Services for UVM and as
Senator Sanders said, I served in the United States Marine
Corps where I deployed three times in 4 years, and then
attended UVM on the post-9/11 G.I. bill.
For me, UVM was a great place to transition from being an
active duty Marine back into the civilian world. I learned to
leverage and articulate the skills, leadership, and attitude
that I gained in the Marines, and apply them in the workforce.
My current position has two main roles, which allow me to
be successful supporting veteran transitions. The first role is
very basic. It is helping students understand the admission
process at the University and how to access V.A. education
benefits. That involves assisting with the application process,
submitting accurate enrollment information, monitoring V.A.
payments, and making sure that students understand their V.A.
education benefits.
To accomplish that, we have to understand V.A. and DoD
systems, have associated norms and rules for accessing
information and accomplishing tasks, and likewise, so do
institutions of higher learning.
Students navigating both V.A. and higher education systems
must understand the differences between those disparate
bureaucracies in order to be successful.
This is the basic level and no further levels of support
can be successful without that process taking place accurately
and in a timely fashion. I am still learning and will continue
working hard to learn how to quickly, accurately, and correctly
certify student enrollment. V.A. technical support, liaison
availability, and partnership are critical to the success of
schools administering V.A. education benefits.
My second role at UVM is implanting an all-inclusive
student veteran support system, which focuses on educating
students about what is available to them on campus and in the
community.
UVM is creating a system of support and encouragement for
veterans throughout the entire higher education process from
engagement with student veterans through the higher education
process. From first contact with a prospective student all the
way through successful academics, to graduation, and engagement
with the career center. That support includes academic;
financial aid; social, that is peer support through student
veteran organization, a student-run club and member of Student
Veterans of America; mentorship, for example, faculty, staff,
and senior students; and personal wellness.
When describing what I do, I think of Maslow's hierarchy of
needs. We need to make sure that students understand their
benefits and that they are working before we can proceed to
providing higher levels of support. It is important for me to
note that I see both student and system barriers to accessing
higher education for military veterans at UVM. Many veterans
might be reticent to receive help, but as a veteran coordinator
we have personal domain expertise, I use my experience to
breakdown some of those barriers with knowledge, social
management, and awareness.
I work hard to build trust-based relationships with
students, which gives me the ability to become a trusted
advisor and build bridges through previous layers of distrust
or misunderstanding with V.A. or UVM.
The fact is that this is high stakes. This is an important
issue which has the ability to influence people's lives,
student success or failure in their future are somewhat
dependent on being successful in college. That is important to
me. Student veteran success matters to me in a huge, personal
way and I am so thankful and humble to have had access to a
fantastic education benefit.
Thank you for the opportunity to be here today and I look
forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Carlson follows:]
Prepared Statement of David Carlson
Good morning, the University of Vermont is a public research land-
grant university located in Burlington, VT. My name is David Carlson
and I am the coordinator of Student Veteran Services for UVM. I served
in the U.S. Marine Corps, where I deployed three times in 4 years, and
then attended UVM using the Post-9/11 GI bill. For me, UVM was a great
place to transition from being an active duty marine back to the
civilian world. I learned to leverage and articulate the skills,
leadership, and attitude I gained in the marines, and apply them in the
workforce. My current position has two main roles which allow me to be
successful supporting veterans' transitions.
The first role is basic; it is helping students understand the
admission process at the University and how to access to VA education
benefits. That involves assisting with the application process,
submitting accurate enrollment information, monitoring VA payments, and
making sure that students understand their VA education benefits. To
accomplish that, we have to understand that VA and DoD systems have
associated norms and rules for accessing information and accomplishing
tasks and, likewise, so do institutions of higher learning. Students'
navigating both VA and higher education systems must understand the
differences between those two disparate bureaucracies in order to be
successful. That is the basic level, and no further levels of support
can be successful without that process taking place accurately and in a
timely fashion. I am still learning, and will continue working hard to
learn how to quickly, accurately and correctly certify student
enrollment. VA technical support, liaison availability and partnership
are critical to the success of schools administering VA education
benefits.
My second role at UVM is implementing an all-inclusive student
veteran support system which focuses on educating students about what
is available to them on campus and in the community. UVM is creating a
system of support and encouragement for veterans through the entire
higher education process, from first contact with a prospective student
all the way through successful academics, to graduation and engagement
with the Career Center. That support includes academic, financial aid,
social (i.e., peer support through the Student Veteran Organization, a
student-run club and member of Student Veterans of America), mentorship
(e.g., faculty, staff, senior students), and personal wellness. When
describing what I do, I think of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. We need
to make sure students understand their benefits, and that they are
working, before we can proceed to providing higher levels of support.
It is important for me to note, that I see both student and system
barriers to accessing higher education for military veterans. Many
veterans might be reticent to receive help but as a veteran coordinator
with personal domain expertise, I use my experience to break down some
of those barriers with knowledge, social management and awareness. I
work hard to build trust-based relationships with students which gives
me the ability to become a trusted advisor and build bridges through
previous layers of distrust or misunderstanding with VA or UVM.
The fact is that this is high stakes. This is an important issue
which has the ability to influence people's lives; students' success or
failure, and their future, are somewhat dependent on being successful
in college. That's important to me. Student veteran success matters to
me in a huge personal way and I'm so thankful, and humble to have had
access to a fantastic education benefit.
Thank you for the opportunity to be here today and I look forward
to your questions.
Senator Sanders. Thank you, very much, Mr. Carlson.
Senator Burr, did you want to introduce Ms. Rhinehardt?
Senator Burr. Mr. Chairman, I will never pass on the
opportunity to introduce not only a person who I think is
intricately involved in the issue that we are here to discuss,
and that is veterans' education and her role at the University
of North Carolina System. She was somebody whom I had the
opportunity to have on my staff for a period of time, who
understands the side of the dais that we are on, and who
understands what it is like to sit behind those of us who get
all the accolades for what we do, and never get recognized for
the tremendous work that our staff does at the committee and at
the personal level.
Kimrey Rhinehardt, one, is passionate about the job she
does. She understands in great depth the people that are
impacted by the legislation that we write. And she is
passionate about making sure that, at the end of the day, her
influence is for us to do the right thing.
She has been instrumental in the academic outreach by the
University of North Carolina to active duty DoD, to our bases
in North Carolina, to the continuing education of our active
duty forces. She is also instrumental in trying to understand
and continuing to refine the difficulties of integration of a
veteran into today's college life. And, someone whom I think
has a unique perspective on what those individuals go through
and what institutions need to do to accommodate a host of
different needs that present themselves with the decisions that
veterans come with.
Let me also say, Mr. Chairman, as you know, she has been an
outspoken advocate for yours and my effort to require States to
offer in-State tuition which, I personally believe, is the
right thing for us to do as a Nation, both from a policy
standpoint and from a fiduciary standpoint.
Kimrey, welcome back.
STATEMENT OF KIMREY RHINEHARDT, VICE PRESIDENT OF FEDERAL
RELATIONS, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA, CHAPEL HILL, NC
Ms. Rhinehardt. Thank you, Senator Burr, Mr. Chairman, I
certainly hope that my mother and husband are watching right
now.
Thank you for inviting me to this important conversation. I
would like to point out that my colleague from Vermont was a
Marine assigned to Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. And I
believe my fellow panelists have done an outstanding job of
articulating all of the same challenges that UNC students face.
So I am going to get right to the point, and maybe take a
different approach.
I work for the people of North Carolina. My employer, the
University of North Carolina System is a large, 16-campus
university system with 220,000 students, 55,000 faculty and
staff. Approximately 8,000 of our students use some form of
V.A. benefit to pay for their education. As Senator Burr has
already articulated, North Carolina is a big military State and
we are very proud of this.
While 99.5 percent of us sleep quite comfortably in our
beds at night, our friends and neighbors in North Carolina in
uniform are protecting and promoting our freedom in places
where we do not vacation.
These men and women and their families have endured an
unprecedented operational tempo and I am sure that we can all
agree, they have more than earned the right to pursue a high
quality and affordable higher education.
I have worked with North Carolina's military since 2009 and
here is what I have learned from them. They are smart. They are
motivated. They find the university to be overwhelming. They
want us to tell them how to navigate campus, preferably on one
piece of paper without footnotes, caveats, and unnecessary
runarounds. They do not want to ask for help. They have
experience that cannot be replicated in the classroom setting.
They do not want anything handed to them; they want to earn it.
They do not understand why they have to take four semesters
of Spanish when they are fluent in Dari and have used their
language skill to negotiate a real outcome in Afghanistan. They
like having other military affiliated students in their
classes. They will not hesitate to challenge a professor's
theory.
Many do not want to talk about their military life. They
want to find other people like them on campus. They do not have
time to waste on climbing walls. They already did that. They
pursue their degree efficiently.
Here is what professors and other students tell me they
have learned from military students.
``Wow. They are really smart. They do their homework,
turn it in on time, and do not make excuses. They add a
valuable dimension to classroom discussion. They make
everyone around them smarter just by being there. They
want to learn. We do not know what we do not know about
them. I should not have asked them what it was like
over there. We assume they all have PTSD, but they do
not. They want more military-affiliated students in
their classes and veterans that look just like you and
me.''
Administrators ask the UNC System office, ``Tell us how to
do this right. We want to get it right.'' So how does a
university become a place of transition for veterans?
Intentionally. We have come together as a university community
to recalibrate normal. This new normal may take work, but it is
worth it.
The education that the service member needs is mission-
critical because the most important weapon that he or she has
is not an assault rifle, but their mind. And when the service
member makes the transition to veteran in civilian society, we
want that veteran to remain in North Carolina for the long
term. We want veterans to receive in-State tuition in the State
of North Carolina. We want Medal of Honor awardees like Kyle
White to receive in-State tuition in the State of North
Carolina. The University can, and should be a natural place of
transition for the veteran. They have earned their benefit.
The University of North Carolina System commits itself to
partnering with the military because national security should
be a priority for all of us, not just the less than \1/2\ of 1
percent of us that put the uniform on. We could all do
something to contribute. The faculty, staff, and students of
the University of North Carolina stand ready to do our part.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This concludes my testimony.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Rhinehardt follows:]
Prepared Statement of Kimrey Rhinehardt
Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you for inviting
me to join you today. Thank you for your leadership.
The University of North Carolina system is comprised of 16
university campuses. We have 220,000 students and approximately 55,000
faculty and staff across the State of North Carolina. Nearly 8,000\1\
of our students use VA educational benefits to pay for some or all of
their post-secondary education.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ UNC: Fall 2013 data.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
North Carolina is a big military State with 800,000 veterans, six
major military installations with the third largest active military
force in the country. This active-duty force is comprised of 120,000
personnel, 12,000 members of the National Guard and their nearly
145,000 spouses and children.
As the State's public university, we are working hard to enroll,
educate and graduate as many academically prepared service members,
veterans and family members as possible. Our motivation is simple and
our actions are intentional: the success of student veterans and their
families at UNC institutions is linked to the success of the University
and our State's future.
In October 2010, the University of North Carolina system convened a
working group known as ``UNC SERVES (UNC Systemwide Evaluation and
Recommendation for Veterans Education and Services), to evaluate and
recommend specific action steps for improving how the University system
and its individual institutions serve veterans and their families. The
UNC SERVES working group issued its report in April 2011.
The University is making steady progress toward implementing UNC
SERVES recommendations. Annually, we issue the ``UNC SERVES Resource
Guide'' to highlight systemwide and campus progress with each of the
action items. The UNC SERVES working group report and Resource Guides
may be reviewed online at: http://www.northcarolina.edu/frc/uncserves/
serves.html.
centralized information sharing and one-stop shopping for veterans
Veterans are not typical students. Student veterans come to us from
a highly structured, bureaucratic environment of the military and are
often uneasy with the loosely structured, bureaucratic environment of
the University. University admissions and enrollment processes can be
complex. This is especially true for veterans. One of our top
priorities is to centralize information sharing using a technology-
based platform to provide a virtual ``one-stop-shop'' for veterans. To
access the University's virtual one-stop-shop: http://
www.uncserves.northcarolina.edu.
Another technology-based resource in development is the North
Carolina Military Educational Positioning System or ``NCMEPS.'' This
Web site provides military-affiliated students with important resources
to explore North Carolina's higher education options: both public and
private. To access NCMEPS: http://www.ncmileps
.northcarolina.edu.
data collection and reporting
The University has established systemwide, uniform data collection
procedures to ensure that we can identify and track the academic
progress of service members, veterans, spouses, and dependent family
members.
unc institutions align academic programs to student needs
UNC campuses have a legacy of working with military-affiliated
students and the military installations in North Carolina. Representing
all UNC institutions, the UNC system office has academic advisors at
Fort Bragg, aboard Camp Lejeune and at Coast Guard Air Station
Elizabeth City.
The University has specialized programs of interest to veterans and
active duty military service members. Veterans are attracted to these
programs because their military learning and experiences align with the
academic program and prepare them for their desired career. And, many
courses are structured to complement an adult student's life. Many
student veterans have family responsibilities, part-time or full-time
employment and other obligations.
closing
The education that the service member needs is mission critical
because the most important weapon that he or she has is not an assault
rifle--but their mind. And, when the service member makes the
transition to veteran in civilian society we want that veteran to
remain in North Carolina for the long term.
The University can and should be a natural place of transition for
the veteran. They have earned their educational benefit.
The University of North Carolina system commits itself to
partnering with the military because national security should be a
priority for all of us--not just for the less than half of 1 percent of
us that serve in the armed forces. We can all do something to
contribute. The faculty, staff and students of the University of North
Carolina stand ready to do our part.
Thank you, Mister Chairman. This concludes my testimony.
Senator Sanders. Thank you all very much for your important
testimony on a very important issue.
We are all, as Ms. Rhinehardt indicated, deeply
appreciative and knowledgeable about the sacrifices made by so
many. And our job, and what this hearing is about, is to make
sure that when people come back, they get the best education
that they possibly can. And what we are here to discuss is what
is going right and what is not going right, how do we improve
it?
Let me just start off with a very general question to Mr.
Carlson, who is from my hometown. In a broad statement, Mr.
Carlson, how is the G.I. bill working at the University of
Vermont? What is positive about it, and what are some of the
impediments and negatives that you see that veteran students
are facing?
Mr. Carlson. Thank you, Senator Sanders.
The post-9/11 G.I. bill at the University of Vermont
overall is working well and it worked well for me.
Many of the positives are that according to lot pays for a
student's in-State tuition and fees, it provides them with a
very decent housing allowance to survive on while they are
pursuing their education.
However, some of the negatives are that it does cover that
in-State tuition as we have discussed. The University of
Vermont has recently increased from 35 to 45 undergraduate
Yellow Ribbon Scholarships, which represents a tremendous
amount of matched dollars from UVM and from the V.A. to allow
out-of-State students to choose to attend the University of
Vermont, to make that good transition, to come to a place where
the campus climate is very accepting of diversity, whether that
diversity is military or any other culture.
Some of the real challenges that are experienced are
accurately and quickly reporting enrollment information from
the University of Vermont, which is its own large bureaucracy
to V.A., which is its own bureaucracy. The two do not speak the
same language and so, I find myself in the middle translating
and ultimately de-conflicting when something goes awry. That is
what I have to say.
Senator Sanders. Let me ask Ms. Rhinehardt the same
question. What is working well about the G.I. bill, and what
are some of the impediments and problems that you see?
Ms. Rhinehardt. What is working well is that we have 8,000
students using a form of V.A. benefit on our campuses. And so
for that, we thank the Federal Government and this Congress for
extending that benefit.
What is not working well is when the change was made to
find savings associated with the G.I. bill a couple of years
ago. Because of North Carolina's unique circumstances in which
we have a pretty significant differential between out-of-State
tuition and in-State tuition, we were actually able to cover
many out-of-State students using the highest in-State tuition
under the old rules. When the rules changed, we had a lot of
students who were admitted under one set of rules and then
enrolled thinking, ``This is my tuition,'' and were handed a
great big surprise.
Since that time, we have been fighting, really with anyone
that will listen, to try to get in-State tuition for these
students in North Carolina. That is our biggest challenge.
Senator Sanders. These students are faced with a gap of
several thousand dollars.
Ms. Rhinehardt. Oh, many more thousands.
Senator Sanders. What?
Ms. Rhinehardt. I mean, probably close to $13,000-$14,000.
Senator Sanders. Over a period of years?
Ms. Rhinehardt. A year.
Senator Sanders. A year? The gap is that high?
Ms. Rhinehardt. Yes, sir. And you know, our friends in the
private institutions--I do not want them to lose anything--but
they have a much more generous benefit. They receive up to
$18,500 or something along those lines. And when you are in a
State like North Carolina, where your tuition is
extraordinarily low, it would be great if we could have the
$18,500 cap.
Senator Sanders. OK. Other people.
Mr. Hubbard, what is working well? What do you see?
Mr. Hubbard. Thank you, Senator.
I would say more broadly, the positive side of things:
access. Student veterans are able to access an education
whereas previously, they would not have had that opportunity.
Many individuals have commented to me repeatedly,
``I am the first generation student in my family. Had
I not had the G.I. bill, I would not have been able to
have gotten an education. This has brought me to a
different level of education. I have gotten a higher
degree than I had before.''
Which I think goes against the theory that individuals are
using the G.I. bill to specifically get an Associate's Degree
or a lower certification. They are going on to pursue higher
levels of education with their G.I. bill.
On the side of things that could be improved, I think
individuals are often left to make a decision between a 4-year
degree and perhaps a degree that would take longer, something
in a STEM field, for example, engineering, math, science,
technology. Those degrees may take a longer period of study,
and as a result, they are forced to make that decision, in many
cases, when they are balancing their family and trying to
figure out how to pay for that fifth year, they often pursue a
different field.
I think also my colleague, Mr. Carlson, pointed out a great
example of processes. The processes need to be improved so that
they are streamlined to allow for a student veteran to take
their benefit and make the most of it.
Senator Sanders. OK. Thank you very much.
Senator Burr.
Senator Burr. Senator Sanders, let me share with my
colleagues just a couple of things that Kimrey did not say.
North Carolina's subsidy to higher education is extremely
high for in-State students. I think that is obvious. We
consider one to be an in-State student after they have a 1-year
residency in North Carolina.
So to Kyle White, who is a Medal of Honor winner as of last
week, who chose to go to school in North Carolina after he
separated from the active duty, his first year was as an out-
of-State student where he accumulated debt matched with his
G.I. bill, but his second, third, and fourth year became an in-
State student under today's reimbursement.
Our active duty forces that are stationed within North
Carolina, their children receive in-State tuition on Day One.
And we are going to do the right thing in North Carolina, but I
think it is important for us to recognize the inequity that we
created between public and private and it is magnified when you
take a State like North Carolina that has a significant
subsidy.
Let me ask you, Mr. Carlson. What is the in-State/out-of-
State tuition at your institution?
Mr. Carlson. Thank you, Senator.
The in-State/out-of-State tuition gap, in-State tuition is
generally about 40 percent of the out-of-State tuition.
Senator Burr. OK. Another high subsidy.
Mr. Carlson. It is significant. Yes, sir.
Senator Burr. Mr. Hubbard, the Veterans Affairs committee,
which Senator Sanders ranks, and I am the ranking member, has
jurisdiction over many veterans education programs which,
specifically under the Higher Education Act, we can change. It
might be easy for the college going process for veterans and
service members.
What changes should we make, in your estimation, that would
make it easier?
Mr. Hubbard. Thank you for the question, sir.
I believe often that there needs to be more communication,
or needs to be more transparency. As student veterans come in,
they need to have the right information to make the right
decisions about their education benefits.
If you are going to a university, for example, that is not
accredited or might not allow you to have the certification at
the end--that information in the end--you basically lose
benefits. You lose a period of study. So that consumer
information is very important.
And then, having the communication with the school and the
school have communication with the V.A. or DoD, as it were. I
think that is very important. That entire process, that
lifecycle, that education for veterans is very important.
Senator Burr. Kimrey, what prompted the UNC System to
embark on UNC SERVES and that initiative?
Ms. Rhinehardt. The president at the time, Erskine Bowles,
looked at me and said, ``Ms. Rhinehardt, you are getting down
to Fort Bragg and you are going to find out what is going on
with them down there.'' So I went down and I learned a whole
lot about what I did not know, and immediately saw this
incredible opportunity for our State. When you have special
operations community as large as it is in this State.
I spent 3 days this week embedded in a negotiation exercise
with Green Berets, and there were students from other UNC
campuses there. And I was like, ``What better opportunity is
there?''
We began to understand what the opportunity was and then we
brought together people from across the UNC System, faculty,
staff, and students. We all got in a room and said, ``What do
we want to do about this? What do we want to change about the
way we do business and the way we serve these students?''
In very short order, which is not like a university, we
issued a report that said, ``These are the things we want to
do.'' That report did not sit on a shelf. We were very active.
We monitor. We look at each of the best practices that, I will
say, many of which came from the ACE Tool Kit, which is a very
helpful tool for us. We learned what we did not know and now
that we know, we can go do it.
So I would say that is the thing that defines a university
campus from being very active and aggressive in a campus that
appears to not be doing something. It is not that they do not
want to; they just do not know what to do.
Senator Burr. What metrics does UNC use to gauge success?
Kimrey Rhinehardt. We look at whether or not campuses have
established central points of contact in key offices like
financial aid office, the registrar's office, making sure that
all of that information is published in a one-stop shop format.
It is virtual. It is online. And our office makes sure that it
is up to date so the veterans do not have to hunt and peck all
over campus to figure out, ``Where do I go?'' That is the first
thing.
The second thing is that, you know, ``Is your campus
developing programs that align with service member training and
needs?'' We have many programs that offer courses on Saturdays
and Sundays, and then we will have follow on study throughout
the semester.
An adult student cannot go to class on Monday, Wednesday,
and Friday at 11 a.m. generally. I mean, I certainly cannot. I
have a 9-year-old who goes to school. I work full-time and it
is not different than someone like me.
So to me, this military community is a microcosm of the
much larger challenge, which is, how do we serve all
nontraditional students?
Senator Burr. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Sanders. Thank you very much.
Senator Baldwin.
Senator Baldwin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As the entire panel has experienced, veterans often need
financial aid beyond their G.I. benefits. And the Student
Veterans of America's research has shown that many veterans
continue their education beyond earning a certificate or
undergraduate degree and need the support of aid provided under
Title IV of the Higher Education Act.
We know that as nontraditional students, veterans often
must work, as well as attend to family and other obligations,
as we just heard.
However, working while in school can result in these
veterans reducing or even eliminating their title IV aid
because their income may exceed the Higher Education Act's
Income Protection Allowance.
I have been working toward the introduction of legislation
that will address this issue head-on by raising the Income
Protection Allowance for all students, including veterans,
whether they are working to support themselves or supporting a
family.
I am hoping that the panel can help articulate the need for
financial support beyond the G.I. bill and address the unique
financial needs of the working student veteran. And I am hoping
that you can also speak to how legislation to raise the Income
Protection Allowance would help veterans come out of school
with less debt.
Mr. Carlson and Mr. Hubbard, I wonder if you can kick off
the discussion of this topic?
Mr. Hubbard. Thanks for the question, Senator.
I believe you actually raise a very important point and
that is nontraditional students in higher education. What we
are finding is with our research, as you pointed out, over half
veterans are doing well in higher education and we are seeing
to raise that number.
I think this points out something important, and that is,
we have found a system, a process, a unique approach to
supporting the nontraditional student in higher education. If
we can apply that to other nontraditional students along with
legislation like you point out, to raise the Income Protection
Allowance, I think we can come onto a process that will enable
nontraditional students to succeed.
Research on nontraditional students is very old. At best
estimates, 20 to 30 percent says that nontraditional students
are graduating. Obviously, with student veterans in the upwards
of 50-plus percent, that is much higher.
If we can bring that gap together, I think we will have
found a very significant breakthrough.
Mr. Carlson. Thank you for the question, Senator.
I believe that when we think about nontraditional students,
especially military veterans, rolling out essentially what is
concierge service, a single point of contact, so that they can
have all of the information that they need directly, up front
and they do not have to go from office to office within the
university and within the Department of Veterans Affairs to
understand what their benefits are. And if and when they are
going to have an outstanding balance that would not be paid by
those V.A. benefits, it is important for them to have that
information up front and have it be complete so that they can
make an informed decision.
Senator Baldwin. Ms. Rhinehardt.
Ms. Rhinehardt. I would like to point out, and laud the
Student Veterans of America because of their work with the
Million Records Project. What they did is they started to go
deeper into understanding the analyses of who is doing what,
how well are they doing. But what they did is they used data
that actually reflects a much more accurate picture of who
these students are. They worked with the Clearinghouse, the
National Student Clearinghouse.
I know that this Congress and the Department of Education
are working closely to try to get IPEDS up to better reflecting
transfer student needs and nontraditional students. But really,
what SVA has done has really been the opening salvo for
understanding who these students are, but using the most
accurate date.
Senator Baldwin. Mr. Chairman.
Senator Sanders. Please.
Senator Baldwin. I trust we will have a second round of
questioning, so I will let my colleagues go, but I will
followup with the program you were talking about because I
think there is some interesting discussion that we can have
about that too.
Senator Sanders. Thank you, Senator Baldwin.
Senator Franken.
Senator Franken. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Last year, I visited Inver Hills Community College in
Minnesota and I met with a group of veteran and military
students who talked about how the training and skills that they
had learned in the military do not easily transfer to college
credits.
One veteran told me that he did top secret communications
work when he was deployed and yet, when he returned home, he
could not transfer that training or knowledge into college
credits in communications.
This is for anyone: what can be done to support the veteran
military students who have existing skills from military
service or training, and are not able to turn those skills into
college credits? Anyone. Just jump in.
Mr. Hubbard. Thank you, Senator.
I think that is actually a critical point the Student
Veterans of America is working very hard toward. The idea of
credits and credentialing is something that has come up time
and time again, as I am sure you are aware of as well.
I think there is a double approach here. From the student
veteran perspective, it is a matter of translating those skills
so that the universities can understand where they do apply; so
coming from that side. And then from the other side, for the
actual institution of higher learning, for them to accept those
credits is often a difficult fight as well. If both of them can
meet in the middle, I think that will be an opportunity for
these student veterans in all States, to benefit from.
A great example is if you, as you point out, have a
communications background. You have done communications work
for the military. Maybe you have done it for several years and
you have proven that you have those skills. If the universities
then point you to a Communications 101 class, that is a waste
of your time.
If you can go to a higher, or at least test out of some of
those more basic courses, that will shorten your time to
degree, which will then allow you to save those benefits for
later education purposes.
Mr. Carlson. Senator, thank you for the question.
I think a big step forward that was made in that regard is
the Joint Services Transcripts. Previously, as a Marine, I went
to the University of Vermont with a SMART Transcript, which was
Navy and Marine Corps, and some of those courses that I had
completed while I was in the military may or may not have
transferred to UVM, depending on their content and length.
But as I see students coming in now with a Joint Services
Transcript, many more of those credits are able to come into
the university.
Senator Franken. Ms. Rhinehardt.
Ms. Rhinehardt. I am so glad you asked that question
because the University of North Carolina is actually just
beginning its intentional effort to divide the Military
Articulation Agreement among all of our campuses, and we are
turning, actually, to Minnesota's model for how to do that.
Minnesota is leading the way nationally in articulating
military learning into academic credit. Thank you to the State
of Minnesota for helping UNC figure out the way forward on
this.
Senator Franken. We are getting there. How often are those
kinds of skills that are learned during deployment and military
service and military training are aligned with the skills gap
that we have. We have higher unemployment among our veterans
coming back and our young veterans especially.
To what extent are those unbelievable skills that they have
acquired while serving, do the higher education schools go and
I am talking about 2-year community and technical colleges as
well as the 4-year and say, ``Wow. This aligns so well with
these jobs that exist that people cannot fill.''
Ms. Rhinehardt. Sir, I have a great answer for you.
Senator Franken. Good.
Ms. Rhinehardt. Sorry, I get excited. He told you I got
excited.
Senator Franken. I know. That is good.
Ms. Rhinehardt. UNC Chapel Hill School of Medicine, the
chief of emergency medicine and the chair of the Jaycee Burn
Center happen to have a military background, and they started
working with the 18 Delta Combat Medics and their instructors
down at Fort Bragg. And over the course of time, developed such
a strong relationship that the combat medic instructors are
actually coming up to Chapel Hill campus doing rotations
embedded with all of the medical school faculty. It is actually
going a step beyond that now, because they now understand each
other and understand the skills that they have.
UNC Chapel Hill--they do not currently have a physician
assistant program--but we have a high need for rural emergency
medicine professionals. And many of these men and women would
love to live in North Carolina.
And so, UNC Chapel Hill is actually in the process of
developing a P.A. program that factors in the combat medic
experience so that they do not have to go all the way as
another P.A. candidate would. That experience is factored in.
They do not have to learn how to take a pulse on Day One.
Senator Franken. You are kind of suggesting that people who
deployed in the military in the last 13 years somehow may be
more expert on emergency medical service than they are given
credit for.
Ms. Rhinehardt. Well, the chief of emergency medicine, if
he were here, would tell you that he does probably three or
four tracheotomies every couple of years. And the guys, the 18
Delta's probably do over 400 or 500.
Senator Franken. OK. Thank you. I am out of time, but I
would love to, Madam Chair, have a second round if I can.
Senator Baldwin. I think we will be able to accommodate
that.
Before I call on Senator Murphy, one of the distinctions
between a roundtable and a formal hearing is that you, as
witnesses, can react to one another's answers, et cetera. And I
do not think we went over how you should seek that recognition,
if you are interested. But because of Ms. Rhinehardt's deep
background with the Senate, she already knew just where to put
your nameplate and we will make sure to call on you.
Senator Murphy.
Statement of Senator Murphy
Senator Murphy. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
We spend a lot of great time here talking about what
happens when you are there at the college and how to best
accommodate veterans. I wanted to spend my few minutes talking
about how we help service members pick the right college.
We are really proud of what we have done in Connecticut as
all my colleagues are. We have tuition waivers for veterans to
attend our public universities. We have private, nonprofit
universities like the University of New Haven which goes so far
as to actually raise private dollars in an emergency fund to
cover the gap that sometimes exists before the G.I. benefits
kick-in.
But the reality is that 37 percent of post-9/11 G.I. bill
benefits are not going to State universities or to private
nonprofit universities; they are going to for-profit
universities. And 50 percent of DoD tuition assistance--50
percent--is going to for-profit universities. Many of these
universities do not have, as their primary motivating factor
the education of veterans, but they have profit as their
motivation. And we actually have an Executive order that the
President released, No. 13607, in 2012 that would try to get
our hands around this problem of often very troublesome
targeting and marketing of these for-profit universities to
veterans.
Dr. Langdon, your statistics are cautionary in the sense
that we are proud of how many veterans are getting to school,
but the fact that it is taking, on average, 7 years to get an
Associate's Degree. Some of that, clearly, is for legitimate
reasons and nontraditional students take longer, but part of
that is probably because there are a lot of veterans that are
not getting the right information about what the best school is
for them.
So I wanted to ask this question, a broad one, to the panel
and maybe start with Dr. Langdon and Ms. Thompson Starks. What
could we be doing better to try to give veterans the
information they need to pick the right choice, and should we
not be worried about this huge transfer of benefits going to
for-profit; which, as the committee's own report shows, are not
delivering the same outputs for students that UVM, and the
UNC's System, and the University of Connecticut System are?
Mr. Langdon. Sir, very good question, and on behalf of DoD,
as we approach it when we look at military tuition assistance,
the thing that I must bring forward is, of course, the
presidential Executive order that you have mentioned. From
that, the Department of Defense has updated, just released on
the 15th of May the new Department of Defense Education
Partnership Memorandum of Understanding, MOU. In that, we
addressed a lot of the issues that you are referring to.
For example, institutions providing education programs
through DoD will provide meaningful information on financial
attendance; will not use unfair and deceptive practices;
implementation of rules to strengthen exiting procedures and
access to installations, along those lines.
What we also realize is that we now have a robust
interagency information sharing. At the installation level, as
it is fed down through the services, the service members are
counseled and they are talked about what their goals are and
what they want to try to achieve.
And I submit to you this, a profile of a TA user, Tuition
Assistance on active duty. They are a full-time worker, part-
time student. As you say, they take an average of three courses
per year and less than 1 percent ever reach their cap of that
$4,500. The majority complete their education after leaving,
and there are seven or eight more that go that way, to your
point about 7 years.
Within this new construct, they now must have an education
plan. It must be through a university or school that signs an
MOU that has to meet specific accreditation requirements, which
is national and regional accreditation. They must adhere to all
the principles of excellence that has been outlined in order to
receive, first receive, the tuition assistance dollars.
As we work through that now, the biggest changes are making
sure that that service member has a vetted, approved plan, they
stay on-plan, and it is something that they can translate.
One final point, sir. An active duty member may go to a lot
of universities. The online venue is very attractive because a
lot of the flagship or larger schools--UNC, whomever--is a
campus-based program. And as you know, a lot of our service
members, if they spend any time, they are going to move several
times.
And so, they are taking coursework at universities that fit
that schedule or that work life. But we have made huge strides
in that matter.
Thank you, sir.
Senator Murphy. Ms. Thompson Starks.
Ms. Thompson Sparks. Thank you for an opportunity to
respond.
The Department of Education starts from a philosophy that
in order to help students make good choices, we have to give
them information and tools that enable them to make quality
decisions. We are doing a number of things to provide important
information with respect to cost comparisons across colleges,
financial aid strategies that students can use to reduce their
debt, and also to select quality institutions.
A number of these efforts have been implemented through the
Principles of Excellence Executive Order and our role working
with our agency partners. We were working very closely with DoD
and V.A. on the G.I. bill comparison tool which draws upon data
from Education's IPEDS system, and we have also been involved,
as you know, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, in the
implementation of the financial aid shopping sheet, which is
now being used by more than 2,000 institutions.
Through those efforts, we do hope that this is enabling
students to make well-informed decisions about college options.
Senator Murphy. Thanks.
Mr. Hubbard.
Mr. Hubbard. Thank you, Senator. I would like to applaud
the DoD and their Tuition Assistance Program for taking those
steps. I think that is an active measure that is absolutely
necessary.
I would also point to the comparison tool, which my
colleague brought up. That comparison tool allows student
veterans to make decisions on information, not guesses. That is
very important. With the Million Records Project that Student
Veterans of America published, which allowed a similar approach
to make decisions for policymakers at the higher education
level on veterans on data, not guesses. Anecdote is great, and
that can point you in the right direction, but it is not
something you can base a sound decision on.
I would also note that for an individual to go to the
comparison tool to find the school that they are interested in,
and then to take it a step further by actually contacting a
Student Veterans of America chapter or veterans on that campus.
That allows them a very clear, on the ground perspective that,
I think, is absolutely critical. If you are not talking to
veterans who are actually experiencing what is going on, on the
ground, you might have a flawed assessment. I mean, you can
have a lot of pretty pictures on a lot of nice-looking Web
sites, but at the end of the day, if you are not talking to
people who are in the actual experience themselves, you
probably are not going to get a clear picture of what is going
on.
I would applaud Senator Warren for her efforts on student
debt. I think as individuals make better informed decisions,
the student debt will come down. However, for the time being,
this is still an important issue. People are going to schools
that have false marketing practices and aggressively pursue
veterans for their G.I. bill.
This results in them losing benefits because they are not
getting a degree with that G.I. bill benefit that they are
spending. As a result, they end up losing time with that G.I.
bill and have to take out further debt.
Senator Murphy. Mr. Carlson.
Mr. Carlson. Thank you, Senator.
One of the things that I do as a part of my role at the
University of Vermont is work very closely with perspective
students who are incoming to the University and who are in that
search process. And when I am speaking with a perspective
student veteran who is deciding which school to attend, if the
most important part of his or her decisionmaking process is,
``How easy is it to use V.A. benefits here?'' I think that is a
problem.
I think that students should be choosing schools based on
academic programs, support systems, proximity to family, or
other personal reasons and not just based on how easily they
perceive to be able to use V.A. benefits at that institution.
Senator Baldwin. Senator Warren.
Statement of Senator Warren
Senator Warren. Thank you, Madam Chairman.
I am glad to hear about the work to help prospective
students get critical information when they are making
decisions about where to go to school. But we still have many
who are in programs that are happy to take the military
member's Federal benefits, but do not deliver on their promise
of providing a good education.
And as we know, this is a serious problem for any student,
but even worse for those who are using G.I. benefits. Once a
veteran entrusts a college with those hard-earned benefits,
there is no second chance if the school turns out to be of very
poor quality.
Prior to this year, veterans and active duty military had
few places to turn to share their stories and get help when
they were mistreated by colleges.
In January, the Federal Government launched a system for
veterans and members of the military to file complaints about
bad experiences they had with colleges. The Complaint Portal is
a collaboration among several Federal agencies, including the
Department of Veterans Affairs, the Department of Defense, the
Department of Education, and the Consumer Financial Protection
Bureau.
My question is, Dr. Langdon, how does the DoD plan to use
the data that you are collecting from complaints to improve the
Tuition Assistance program?
Mr. Langdon. Madam, it is a very good question. To caveat
to my prior statement, not only must the schools be regionally
and nationally accredited, but they also must be V.A. approved,
and they also must be title IV approved.
There are many levels that we wanted to make sure that the
service member, when they were going to school, that they were
going to protect.
Senator Warren. I understand about the front end. My
question is you are collecting now a lot of complaint data.
Mr. Langdon. Yes.
Senator Warren. What I want to know is how do you plan to
use the complaint data?
Mr. Langdon. As we brought it into date, ma'am, we have had
146 complaints since January, complaints field since January
when it was brought on. That is not a huge number, considering
as the number that I have given you of 285,000.
What we are finding of that data, of those complaints, they
are not actually complaints against a school per se. It is
unknown policies or, ``I did not know what a policy was.'' It
was a process or policy procedure.
What we have realized, ma'am, is that we need to now start
touching back with the universities, the ones that our students
are going to and trying to help them understand what we are
hearing and what we are finding about where the policies need
to be, how the explanations need to go, just as to my colleague
to the left here mentioned that before. It is easily accessible
UNC on their policy. That is what we are using.
Senator Warren. Just so I understand, sir.
Mr. Langdon. Right.
Senator Warren. At this point, your plan is to investigate
each one of these complaints.
Mr. Langdon. As they come in, yes.
Senator Warren. As they come in. And let me just ask while
we have this out here, Ms. Thompson Sparks, why does the
Federal Government not collect complaints from all students?
Ms. Thompson Sparks. I am not sure I have the specifics to
answer that question. However, I will say that the collection
of data is of utmost importance to us.
Senator Warren. But how about complaint data?
Ms. Thompson Sparks. The Department of Education is
participating as part of the centralized complaint system. And
to date, I do not have the exact number of complaints we have
received, but I know it is feeding back into our understanding
of how our title IV borrowers are utilizing their aid.
Senator Warren. Mr. Hubbard.
Mr. Hubbard. That is actually an excellent point, I think,
Senator. And that is veterans are highlighting issues that have
been occurring for individuals in higher education across the
board. I think only until recently as these veterans have
spoken out that these issues have surfaced.
For veterans, they have no problem, necessarily saying,
``Hey, I have earned these benefits and they are being used
poorly.'' I think to that end, we could encourage more veterans
and more individuals in higher education to take similar steps.
Collecting data across the board for individuals in higher
education? Extremely important. If we are not doing that, we
are letting all individuals down. Veterans that go to school
will be let down because their peers are being let down. The
educational environment as a result is hurt, and that hurts
everyone across the board.
Senator Warren. Thank you.
Mr. Carlson.
Mr. Carlson. Thank you, Senator.
One of the main complaints that I hear about the post-9/11
G.I. bill specifically is the ability for a veteran to separate
from the military and then enter into a program that is V.A.-
approved and is degree-seeking as a matriculated student at a
school.
The post-9/11 G.I. bill will pay up to two terms while they
are seeking continuing education courses to become
matriculated, degree-seeking students. However, one of the real
problems that I have run into is that at many schools, and
University of Vermont is one of them, over the summer term
there are many different meeting sessions with different
beginning and end dates. And from the V.A. perspective, well
for the University of Vermont, it is one semester. From V.A.'s
perspective those are each separate terms.
I have students, when we think about nontraditional
students and student veterans being some of the most
nontraditional, we have individuals who entered UVM in the
spring semester who are trying to be degree-seeking,
matriculated students in the fall who can only get a portion of
their summer course paid. And that is something that I have
seen that is a real problem. It is a barrier to them becoming
degree seeking students.
Senator Warren. Ms. Rhinehardt.
Ms. Rhinehardt. Yes, ma'am. We all sit here, with
complaints about rising tuition and the cost of going to
college. And as I listen to my fellow panelists--I heard, I do
not know, on the fourth iteration of a DoD MOU or third. I lost
track. The Department of Education is doing something, CFPB is
doing something, the V.A. is doing something.
Back home in North Carolina, we have a lot of State
legislators asking us, ``Why do you have so much middle
management?'' Well, because we have to keep up with all of
these processes and make sure we are inputting all these things
to comply. Every minute that we are working to comply with
multiple agencies that may or may not be coordinating, that is
a minute that is taken away from serving the veteran.
Senator Warren. I am sorry, Ms. Rhinehardt. I want to make
sure I understand you. What we are talking about here is an
established complaint system that has only been established
since January, and it is there to take complaints directly from
veterans or active duty service members who are having a
problem with a college.
Are you saying that when we get a followup from the
Department of Defense that they should not be following on
those complaints to find out what the veteran's problem is with
the college and whether or not the college is appropriately
addressing it because it takes your time?
Ms. Rhinehardt. No, ma'am. Actually, I did not address the
complaint system at all.
Senator Warren. That was what my question was about--the
complaint system and whether we should have a complaint system.
Not just for veterans and active duty military, but we should
also have a complaint system for all students.
I want to make the point that having a complaint system in
place is a powerful tool for accountability. In a little over 2
years the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau has handled
nearly a quarter of a million complaints about financial
products. Service members, veterans, and their families are
only a small portion of those who have complained, but they
have already recovered more than $1 million from financial
institutions through this complaint system.
Every complaint, however, has been valuable because it
tells an agency what kind of problems exist and where they
exist and permits that agency to examine the institutions that
are failing those they are supposed to serve.
Most recently, the CFPB complaint data formed the basis of
a $97 million settlement against Sallie Mae for overcharging
veterans on their student loans. We should take seriously the
importance of developing robust complaint systems and using the
data that come from those systems.
Thank you, Madam Chairman.
Senator Burr. Madam Chair, could I say to my colleague,
there has been a complaint system that has been available to
every student, not just to veterans. It is the accreditation
agency. Any student, since I can remember, could file a
complaint with the accrediting agency of that institution. And
I am not saying that is prefect for veterans, but we have not
been without a mechanism for students to complain to people who
can affect whether the accreditation of that institution is
intact or not.
Senator Warren. I appreciate the Senator's comments about a
complaint system that is in place. But when we have had the
accreditors in here to talk about the process under which they
consider accreditation and whether or not they actually take
steps, I think we can conclude that it has not been a very
effective process for making sure that students' complaints are
heard or acted upon.
Senator Burr. My good friend raises a good question.
Senator Baldwin. The Chair is here to call upon Senator
Casey.
Senator Burr. My good friend raises a question that is the
subject of debate for higher education reauthorization and I
take it that way. But let me just be on the record, it does not
take the Federal Government stepping in to create something. We
should make sure that what we have got in place works and I
support what DoD is doing. I think it is important for the
veteran's program. But if we have got something that is broken,
then let us make it work.
Senator Baldwin. Senator Casey.
Statement of Senator Casey
Senator Casey. Thanks very much, and I appreciate the
testimony of the panelists. I know I missed a lot of your
testimony here today, but appreciate the work you have done to
provide written testimony that we will benefit from. And I also
appreciate the commitment that you have made on these issues.
When I consider what our obligations are to veterans, I
think it starts with that basic understanding that I have often
said is not good enough for us at the time of a military
engagement to pray for veterans. It is also our obligation to
make sure that we are worthy of their valor. And being worthy
of their valor means getting the policy right, and that is what
you are helping us with when it comes to helping veterans get
their higher education and job readiness opportunities when
they come back.
I need to do a little bragging for just a moment about my
State, if you do not mind. We all do that at some point. We are
all allowed to do this, but a couple of institutions that were
ranked by ``U.S. News & World Report'' in November 2013 for
their efforts on behalf of veterans and student veterans. Penn
State was ranked No. 1 and Drexel University came in 12th.
Temple and Duquesne were tied for 24th. I am pretty happy about
that and I want to make sure they heard that I bragged about
them. Maybe no one else has done that today. There are some
good models out there and we want to draw upon them and use
them as templates.
One question I had, and I will start with Mr. Hubbard and
then broaden it from there. You and your organization helped us
put together legislation, the Veterans Education Counseling
Act, which as its purpose to empower veterans seeking an
education by making sure that they know they are entitled to
basic education counseling.
A lot of this revolves around so-called Chapter 36
Education Counseling. Our bill asks the V.A. to make it clear
the differentiation between the Chapter 36 education counseling
and the so-called Chapter 31 Vocational Rehabilitation program.
We want to make sure that they are aware of what they are
entitled to. That sounds almost elementary or self-evident, but
as we know, often in Government sometimes even if you have a
good policy in place, folks do not know about it because we do
not often do a good job of telling them.
I want to start with you, Mr. Hubbard, about that concept
in the bill, but also anything else that you hope we would do
as it relates to not just policy on veterans education, but
making sure that we can make sure that folks are aware of what
benefits are there for them.
Mr. Hubbard. Thank you, Senator.
I appreciate that. I will point out that Drexel was a
recent Chapter of the Month for Student Veterans of America, so
they are doing excellent things.
Senator Casey. Thank you for helping me do my job. I
appreciate that.
Mr. Hubbard. That is what we are here for.
I believe that the 1-year out counseling is something that
is critical. Counseling, in general, is obviously very
important, but catching them 1 year out before they are end of
active service, they are EAS, is critical.
We are not doing that as well as we should, and it does
sound elementary that individuals would be informed about what
they are entitled to. That does not always happen. It simply
just does not happen in a lot of cases. I think that is just a
product of the system. Not a lot of individuals, by the time it
gets down to the unit level or even below to the individual
level, it is just not happening.
That information is important for individuals to be able to
actually make a clear, informed decision. If they do not have
that information, who knows what is going to happen. They might
say, ``Well, I am not entitled to go to school.'' ``Well, you
just did 4 years in the Marine Corps. Of course you are.''
A second point I would like to make is that of access. If
you have the information to make the right decisions, that is
obviously a precursor. But if you cannot access your benefits,
if the system is too difficult to process it, if your claim
gets lost, if an individual finally gets to the university but
finds out they cannot afford it because they do not have in-
State tuition, for example. You do not have that access and
that is going to be a critical barrier.
A side note to that, that issue is something that we are
critically looking at. If an individual racks up a lot of debt,
they go through school. Maybe they did not get their degree,
but they come out, now they cannot pursue a career. They have a
difficult time paying off their bills, and this is something
that we are very concerned about.
Senator Casey. I may come back to that, but I know, Mr.
Carlson, Ms. Rhinehardt.
Mr. Carlson. Thank you, Senator.
Some of the work that I do with prospective students when I
am sitting with a military veteran, and often their family,
across the desk from me and I say, ``Hey, it is great. You got
Chapter 33 post-9/11 G.I. bill. Do you know how that works and
do you know how it works at the University of Vermont,''
because each institution of higher learning has some different
policies and procedures in place. And a lot of times I hear,
``Oh, yes. Absolutely. I know exactly what it pays.''
Then I go through exactly what it will do, and sometimes
there can be a little bit of a shock. There can be, ``Oh, I did
not know that it did not cover out-of-State tuition.'' And more
often it is very positive saying, ``Wow, I did not know that it
paid really that much and that I got this amazing housing
allowance while I am engaged.''
Whenever I have a student, a prospective student or a
current student who does not understand their benefit entirely,
I think it is very important that we begin that education
process early in their separation period.
Senator Casey. Just ask before moving on, what is the best
delivery mechanism to do that? In other words, obviously, the
V.A. But I want to get a better understanding of what is the
problem here if that information is not transmitted to the
veteran?
Mr. Carlson. Yes, sir. I believe that a lot of information
in the military is passed through peer experience and through
peer engagement. There is a lot less of the texting, email,
kind of things for the chain of command that comes down from
the platoon commander to the squad leader to the individual
Marine or soldier or airmen.
I think that implementing peer engagement along that point
would be something that is very helpful.
Senator Casey. OK. Yes.
Ms. Rhinehardt. To brag on our Marines at Camp Lejeune a
little bit. Their process, which I think is now a Marine Corps
wide process, is that all new Marines on their very first day
of coming in after they stand in the yellow footprints, and get
their haircut, and figure out where they are is that they start
their education pathway that day.
Senator Casey. OK.
Ms. Rhinehardt. They start to determine how their military
career is going to factor into an eventual civilian career. And
I know that my colleagues at Camp Lejeune were very
instrumental in developing that pathway. So it is happening
within the service branches and it is not perfect. Nothing is,
but it is a really good start.
At the University of North Carolina, I would like to agree
that with all of their points that transparency and information
sharing is critical. That is why we have developed an online
portal called the North Carolina Military Educational
Positioning System. We want it to be a one-stop shop place for
any student, veteran, spouse, or dependent to go in and use
decision tree models to figure out, based on their own personal
circumstances, here are your options to consider. We do not
ever inform them of what the right option is. We just lead them
to their ultimate choices. And they can save that under a
personalized account. And we intentionally decided that we did
not want this to be limited to just public institutions in the
State. We understand that we cannot educate every citizen in
the State of North Carolina. We need our private institutions
to help us do that.
We want to make sure that the veteran or the service member
has access to the institution that is right for them.
Senator Casey. Thank you.
Ms. Starks. I will not ask anymore because we are getting
close on time. We have two minutes.
Ms. Thompson Starks. Thank you. We know how important
counseling and early information is for all students to make
important decisions about pursuing higher education. And I want
to mention three action areas, in particular, that have been
significant in the Department's contributions to support
service members and veterans.
The first is working with our agency partners on the
redesign of Transition GPS. The emphasis has really been on a
military lifecycle model, which enables service members to get
access to critical information before they are separating. This
is really important. It is meeting service members at the point
at which they are making important choices about the path to
pursue after military service.
The second, I would like to mention that we have pursued,
through our Office of Federal Student Aid, is a financial aid
tool kit that includes information and resources, from fact
sheets to how-to videos that are really targeted toward
counselors and those that are working with students. We have
also customized a guide for military service members and
veterans to provide key information about their Federal
benefits.
And third, I would like to mention that we are doing
training and direct outreach to DoD's Transition GPS accessing
higher education facilitators, which is really helping to build
capacity on the ground, and provide the important information
to their team.
Senator Casey. Great. Thank you. Mr. Hubbard, you are on
borrowed time.
Mr. Hubbard. I know. Thank you, Senator. I appreciate that.
If I can actually just quickly emphasize a quick point that
my colleague and fellow Devil Dog made and that is the peer
experience. I think this touches on an absolutely critical
point. While I do appreciate the institutional support and
think that is a necessary precursor, without that, I think
anything else is a moot point.
I will say that peer-to-peer access to information is
probably the most important point in this conversation. That is
how individuals, Marines, sailors, soldiers, and airmen, get
their information from each other.
Senator Casey. Yes.
Mr. Hubbard. And so that is truly probably the most
critical point.
Senator Casey. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Senator Baldwin.
Ms. Rhinehardt. Just to quickly respond. You can have all
the advanced information in the world, so long as you know what
your plan, what your outcome looks like. We have a lot of folks
within the military who are receiving involuntary discharge
orders. They do not realize they are not going to be in the
military next year. They are not contemplating going to school
at this moment. So we need to remember that there are a lot of
folks out there that their lives have just changed and it is
beyond their control.
Senator Casey. Thank you.
Senator Baldwin. I think we are going to do a quick second
round and I will start with my own questions.
I would like to return to the Million Records Project. I
understand SBA has been working in collaboration with the
Department of Veterans Affairs and the National Student
Clearinghouse on that project to help us, as policymakers and
veterans and citizens, better understand the education and
career outcomes of veterans.
And I also believe that, in order to help veterans and
service members meet their goals, they have to have clear,
outcome-driven information on which to base educational
decisions.
Two years ago, when I was a member of the House of
Representatives, I was proud to support both the Camp Lejeune
Families Act and the Improving Transparency of Educational
Opportunities for Veterans Act, both of which require reporting
on educational outcomes for veterans by the Department of
Defense and the Department of Veterans Affairs.
The Camp Lejeune Families Act required reporting on student
outcomes such as certificate degree attainment, credit hours,
and other qualifications earned. The Improving Transparency of
Education Opportunities for Veterans Act of 2012 also required
the V.A. to report on important metrics such as graduation
rates, cohort default rates, median amount of debt, and many
other metrics.
I have a twofold question. First, are there additional
metrics that you think that policymakers and the Federal
Government ought to be collecting in order to get a better idea
of how our veterans and service members are progressing through
higher education?
And second, how can we make this information on student
outcomes, such as degree or certificate attainment or the
financial metrics such as cohort default rates, readily
available and much more easily digestible for students seeking
that data?
I will start with you, Mr. Hubbard and then Ms. Rhinehardt.
Mr. Hubbard. Thank you, Senator.
I think the Million Records Project was groundbreaking
research. It was the first time in over 70 years that we
actually had a clear picture of how veterans were doing in
higher education.
This kind of research has not been done since World War II.
Why it was not done previously? Hard to say, but it was a very
difficult process to do. But we were happy and excited to be
able to offer that to policymakers, such as those in the
Senate.
This data-driven approach is something that we take very
seriously at Student Veterans of America. We do not base
decisions on whim or anecdote. We base decisions on the data.
We look at the data for our thoughts.
I think that schools could do a lot to compare themselves
to this data. We did not necessarily look at institutional
level data. We looked at a broad understanding to get a
baseline across the 10 years of G.I. bill use.
I think institutions, if they were to compare themselves
and make sure that they are tracking that data, tracking their
own outcomes of veterans, they could look inward and figure
out, are they doing better, worse, what is working, what is
not.
That is something that we are also looking at in phase 2 of
the Million Records Project to understand the qualitative
reason for the outcomes that we are seeing. Figure out what we
can do to perhaps improve those numbers.
To your point about additional metrics, I think in our
phase 2, we are looking at several different features like Vet
Success on Campus. Is that working? What are the outcomes of
that, the impact of that on student education?
And then also in terms of loans, I think that is something
that we are also very interested in. There is currently no way
for an individual to have an aggregated view of their current
debt or loans that they have. You have the Department of
Education's loans and Federal loans that are out there. You
also have private loans and those two do not necessarily talk.
If we can come up with an approach that would aggregate
this information, it would allow universities to have a better
understanding of how their students are doing, and it would
also allow individuals to have a better understanding of how
they are doing.
Currently, the only system we know out there that does this
is the National Student Clearinghouse's Meteor Program. This is
something that we are very interested in and think could
benefit students widely.
Senator Baldwin. Senator Burr.
Senator Burr. Thanks, Senator Baldwin.
Ms. Starks, since Senator Warren brought up the Sallie Mae
settlement, may I ask you some questions?
Pamela Moran was employed by the Department of Education's
Office of Postsecondary Education here in the summer of 2011.
Are you familiar with her June 9, 2011 letter, in her capacity
as a Department official to the Consumer Bankers Association
Education Finance Council, the National Council of Higher
Education, and the Student Loan Servicing Alliance responding
to their request for clarification regarding SCRA compliance
and proper treatment of veterans? Where she said,
``We agree that when a member of the military does
not clearly specify an end date for their service, that
is a reasonable approach to interpreting the service
dates on military orders to identify the start and end
dates for the interest relief rate relief.''
Are you familiar with that letter?
Ms. Thompson Starks. No, sir. I do not have that letter.
Senator Burr. Are you familiar with the letter?
Ms. Thompson Starks. No, I am not.
Senator Burr. Do you consider a letter from Ms. Moran to be
as an authority within the Department of Education providing
guidance to the student loan industry representatives to say
that there is a start and an end date must be present in a
service member's request in order for a lender to grant the
request?
Ms. Thompson Starks. Sir, thank you for the question.
Since I am not familiar with that letter, and do not have
the letter with me, I will just say that I know that this is an
issue that we are taking very seriously.
Senator Burr. But that was the Department's policy. That
was the guidance that they gave to lenders. Do you agree with
that?
Ms. Thompson Starks. I am sorry. I cannot comment on that.
Senator Burr. Is this an issue that the Department has said
that, as a matter of fact, they announced it would issue
guidance for student loan servicers clarifying this
contradictory guidance that have been issuing to the field from
what the Department of Justice and FDIC have been putting out
in the field.
Is this a guidance that is being reconsidered currently at
the Department of Education?
Ms. Thompson Starks. I will say that we are taking steps
working closely with the Department of Justice to ensure
accountability and that our service members are getting the 6
percent interest rate cap to which they are entitled.
I do know that we are directing all of our servicers to
match borrow portfolios to the DoD-SCRA data base, which should
ensure that eligibility is determined more quickly and that
paperwork burdens are reduced.
I will also say that as we are conducting these reviews, we
are preparing additional guidance to try to streamline borrower
processes and provide additional clarifications as to what our
expectations are. We take this very, very seriously and know
that serving our borrowers is of our utmost and highest
priority.
Senator Burr. Ms. Starks, I think the Department has said
publicly, ``We are going to clarify our guidance because of
this decision,'' which means that their interpretation was it
was not clear.
It seems the Department could provide more guidance to
servicers by clearing up the differences between active duty
personnel as defined under the Higher Education Act whereas the
SCRA provides benefits for members during periods of military
service creating a distinction between reservists and active
duty personnel overall.
So which statute is accurate in your determination, the
Higher Education Act or the SCRA? And to whom does the 6
percent interest rate benefit accrue to?
Ms. Thompson Starks. Sir, I very much appreciate your
questions and I would be very glad to take those questions back
and provide a response for the record.
Senator Burr. I appreciate that and I think I have made the
point that this is why it is difficult for servicers to provide
these products because we cannot get clarity on whether you
fall this way or that way.
And I would just say to my colleague who, since we are the
last Indians here, it is important that not only Congress be
specific in the legislation we write. It is absolutely crucial
that the agencies in their guidance provide accurate,
thoughtful guidance. This is not something we should let the
Department of Justice determine in the end and penalize
somebody because of the guidance that they got from an agency
of the Federal Government.
I thank the Chair.
Senator Baldwin. I thank Senator Burr for co-chairing this
roundtable with me. I want to thank the participants for, first
of all, those of you who have served, thank you for your
service. Thank you for your participation today. Your testimony
is very helpful to us.
I request that the record remain open for 10 business days
for members to submit statements and additional questions for
the record.
I appreciate the participation of my colleagues.
And with that, the committee will stand adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:43 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
[all]