[Senate Hearing 114-500] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 114-500 PENDING LEGISLATION ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON PUBLIC LANDS, FORESTS, AND MINING OF THE COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION S. 1167 S. 2018 S. 1423 S. 2223 S. 1510 S. 2379 S. 1699 S. 2383 S. 1777 ---------- APRIL 21, 2016 ---------- [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Printed for the use of the Committee on Energy and Natural Resources Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov S. Hrg. 114-500 PENDING LEGISLATION ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON PUBLIC LANDS, FORESTS, AND MINING OF THE COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION S. 1167 S. 2018 S. 1423 S. 2223 S. 1510 S. 2379 S. 1699 S. 2383 S. 1777 __________ APRIL 21, 2016 __________ [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Printed for the use of the Committee on Energy and Natural Resources Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov ______ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 21-976 WASHINGTON : 2018 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND NATURAL RESOURCES LISA MURKOWSKI, Alaska, Chairman JOHN BARRASSO, Wyoming MARIA CANTWELL, Washington JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho RON WYDEN, Oregon MIKE LEE, Utah BERNARD SANDERS, Vermont JEFF FLAKE, Arizona DEBBIE STABENOW, Michigan STEVE DAINES, Montana AL FRANKEN, Minnesota BILL CASSIDY, Louisiana JOE MANCHIN III, West Virginia CORY GARDNER, Colorado MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico ROB PORTMAN, Ohio MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota ANGUS S. KING, JR., Maine LAMAR ALEXANDER, Tennessee ELIZABETH WARREN, Massachusetts SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia ------ Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests, and Mining JOHN BARRASSO, Chairman SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO RON WYDEN JAMES E. RISCH DEBBIE STABENOW MIKE LEE AL FRANKEN STEVE DAINES JOE MANCHIN III BILL CASSIDY MARTIN HEINRICH CORY GARDNER MAZIE K. HIRONO JOHN HOEVEN ELIZABETH WARREN JEFF FLAKE LAMAR ALEXANDER Colin Hayes, Staff Director Patrick J. McCormick III, Chief Counsel Lucy Murfitt, Senior Counsel and Public Lands and Natural Resources Director Angela Becker-Dippmann, Democratic Staff Director Sam E. Fowler, Democratic Chief Counsel David Brooks, Democratic General Counsel C O N T E N T S ---------- OPENING STATEMENTS Page Barrasso, Hon. John, Subcommittee Chairman and a U.S. Senator from Wyoming................................................... 1 Wyden, Hon. Ron, Subcommittee Ranking Member and a U.S. Senator from Oregon.................................................... 2 Lee, Hon. Mike, a U.S. Senator from Utah......................... 3 Flake, Hon. Jeff, a U.S. Senator from Arizona.................... 4 Risch, Hon. James E., a U.S. Senator from Idaho.................. 4 WITNESSES Casamassa, Glenn, Associate Deputy Chief, National Forest System, U.S. Forest Service, U.S. Department of Agriculture............ 8 Pool, Mike, Acting Deputy Director for Operations, Bureau of Land Management, U.S. Department of the Interior.................... 25 Whelan, Major General Martin, Director of Future Operations, Deputy Chief of Staff for Operations, Headquarters, U.S. Air Force; accompanied by Miller, Jennifer, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Installations, U.S. Air Force.................... 55 ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED Alaska Bible College: Statement for the Record..................................... 84 Alderson, George and Frances: Letter for the Record........................................ 86 Alexander, Alice: Statement for the Record..................................... 87 American Forest Resource Council: Letter for the Record regarding S. 1510...................... 88 Letter for the Record regarding S. 1699...................... 91 American Rivers: Letter for the Record regarding S. 1423...................... 94 Letter for the Record regarding S. 1510...................... 96 Letter for the Record regarding S. 1699...................... 98 Bailey, Marcia: Statement for the Record..................................... 100 Baker, Dr. Norman: Letter for the Record........................................ 101 Barrasso, Hon. John: Opening Statement............................................ 1 Bilodeau, Katheryn (and Jeremiah Busch): Letter for the Record........................................ 102 Blackshear, Sherry and Ronald: Letter for the Record........................................ 106 Bowen, Betsy: Letter for the Record........................................ 107 Boxer, Hon. Barbara: Statement for the Record..................................... 64 Brandt, Vicky: Letter for the Record........................................ 108 Brownley, Hon. Julia, et al.: Letter for the Record........................................ 111 Brumlik, Mr. & Mrs. Daniel: Letter for the Record........................................ 109 Brunstad, Harold: Statement for the Record..................................... 110 Capps, Hon. Lois, et al.: Letter for the Record........................................ 111 Casamassa, Glenn: Opening Statement............................................ 8 Written Testimony............................................ 10 Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 74 Cascadia Wildlands: Letter for the Record........................................ 113 Chilcoat, Rose: Letter for the Record........................................ 115 Clark/Gamble, Carolyn and Rick: Letter for the Record........................................ 118 Combs, Tom and Kristin: Statement for the Record..................................... 119 Crapo, Hon. Mike: Statement for the Record..................................... 120 Crawford, Dennis: Statement for the Record..................................... 122 Curtis, Richard: Letter for the Record........................................ 123 DeVane, Connor: Letter for the Record........................................ 125 Dobkevich, Judith: Statement for the Record..................................... 126 Dubrosky, Doug: Letter for the Record........................................ 127 Durr, Greg: Letter for the Record........................................ 128 Durr, Rebecca: Letter for the Record........................................ 129 Ecotrust Forest Management: Letter for the Record........................................ 130 Farr, Hon. Sam, et al.: Letter for the Record........................................ 111 Feltham, Wendy: Letter for the Record........................................ 132 Flake, Hon. Jeff: Opening Statement............................................ 4 Friends of the Kalmiopsis and Soda Mountain Wilderness Council: Letter for the Record........................................ 133 Gershten, Dr. Mitchell: Letter for the Record........................................ 137 Giedt, Jean: Letter for the Record........................................ 138 Graber, Michael: Letter for the Record........................................ 139 Hansen, Bev: Statement for the Record..................................... 140 Havrilla, Robert: Letter for the Record........................................ 141 Hayden, Anne: Letter for the Record........................................ 142 Hazelleaf, Tom: Letter for the Record........................................ 143 Hill, Paul and Ann: Letter for the Record........................................ 144 Hilscher, Hilary (and Neil Johannsen): Letter for the Record........................................ 145 Huesemann, Drs. Michael and Joyce: Statement for the Record..................................... 146 Janzen, Gayle: Letter for the Record........................................ 148 Jayne, Jerry: Letter for the Record........................................ 150 Jeffries, Tim: Letter for the Record........................................ 151 Johnson, Reid: Letter for the Record........................................ 152 Johnson, Steven: Letter for the Record........................................ 153 Kalmiopsis Audubon Society: Letter for the Record........................................ 154 Klamath-Siskiyou Wildlands Center: Letter for the Record........................................ 156 Klein, Nora: Letter for the Record........................................ 157 Kloefkorn, Walter: Letter for the Record........................................ 158 Kotler, Danielia: Letter for the Record........................................ 159 Krafchuk, Bonnie: Letter for the Record........................................ 160 Kring, Juli: Letter for the Record........................................ 161 Kuntz, Laurie: Letter for the Record........................................ 162 Lambeth, Larry: Letter for the Record........................................ 163 Langton, Kimber: Letter for the Record........................................ 164 Larkin, Beau: Letter for the Record........................................ 165 Lasley, Louise: Letter for the Record........................................ 166 Lee, Hon. Mike: Opening Statement............................................ 3 Lipschik, Matthew: Letter for the Record........................................ 167 Lish, Christopher: Letter for the Record........................................ 168 Liss, Tonia: Statement for the Record..................................... 169 Loeschen, Doris: Statement for the Record..................................... 170 Magliola, Lawrence: Letter for the Record........................................ 171 Mantooth, Roberta and James: Statement for the Record..................................... 172 McCarthy, Michael: Letter for the Record........................................ 173 McKeon, Renae: Statement for the Record..................................... 175 McPhee, Joe: Letter for the Record........................................ 176 Meeks, Mark: Letter for the Record........................................ 177 Menard, Jana: Statement for the Record..................................... 178 Messmer, Jim: Letter for the Record........................................ 179 Moser, Rich: Letter for the Record........................................ 180 Mueller, Tara: Letter for the Record........................................ 181 Murray, Hon. Patty: Statement for the Record..................................... 62 Nagel, Clinton: Statement for the Record..................................... 182 National Park Service, U.S. Department of the Interior: Statement for the Record regarding S. 1510................... 53 Neumann, David: Statement for the Record..................................... 184 North Olympic Timber Action Committee: Letter for the Record........................................ 186 Null, Ciry: Statement for the Record..................................... 190 Oakes, Elizabeth: Statement for the Record..................................... 191 Oliver, Judith: Letter for the Record........................................ 192 Olson, Dr. Sherry: Letter for the Record........................................ 193 Olympic Peninsula Audubon Society: Letter for the Record........................................ 194 Oregon Wild, et al.: Letter for the Record........................................ 196 Orzechowski, Larry: Statement for the Record..................................... 198 Penry, Marlene: Letter for the Record........................................ 199 (The) Pew Charitable Trusts: Statement for the Record..................................... 200 Pool, Mike: Opening Statement............................................ 25 Written Testimony............................................ 27 Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 77 Port of Port Angeles, Washington: Letter for the Record........................................ 203 Potter, Dave and Kirsten: Statement for the Record..................................... 205 Probst, Richard and Kelly: Letter for the Record........................................ 206 Rankin, Michael: Statement for the Record..................................... 207 Reed, Mary: Letter for the Record........................................ 248 Risch, Hon. James E.: Opening Statement............................................ 4 Written Statement for the Record regarding S. 1167........... 5 Written Statement for the Record regarding S. 1777........... 6 Rogue River Coalition: Letter for the Record........................................ 249 Rogue Riverkeeper: Letter for the Record........................................ 251 Roney, Scott: Letter for the Record........................................ 252 Ross, B. Elliot: Letter for the Record........................................ 253 Rothschild, Hon. Jonathan: Letter for the Record........................................ 254 Russell, Alex: Statement for the Record..................................... 255 Serra, Dawn: Letter for the Record........................................ 256 Shaw, Nancy: Letter for the Record........................................ 257 Shaw, William: Statement for the Record..................................... 258 Sierra Club: Letter for the Record........................................ 259 Smith, Charles: Letter for the Record........................................ 261 Smith, Vicki: Letter for the Record........................................ 262 Strahan, Dave: Letter for the Record........................................ 263 Sutherland, Hugh: Letter for the Record........................................ 265 Temple, Ray (and Stephanie Hazen): Statement for the Record..................................... 266 Thomas, Sally: Letter for the Record........................................ 267 Trout Unlimited: Letter for the Record regarding S. 1423...................... 268 Letter for the Record regarding S. 1699...................... 270 Twight-Alexander, Susanne: Letter for the Record........................................ 272 Utah School and Institutional Trust Lands Administration: Statement for the Record..................................... 273 Uyenishi, Steve: Letter for the Record........................................ 279 Wagner-Starley, Christie: Letter for the Record........................................ 280 Whelan, Major General Martin: Opening Statement............................................ 55 Written Testimony............................................ 57 Responses to Questions for the Record........................ 81 Wiese, Deborah (and Ruth Haasl): Letter for the Record........................................ 282 Wilcox, Tom: Letter for the Record........................................ 283 Wild Rogue Outfitters Association: Letter for the Record........................................ 285 (The) Wilderness Society: Letter for the Record........................................ 286 Wilderness Watch and Friends of the Clearwater: Letter for the Record regarding S. 1167...................... 293 Letter for the Record regarding S. 1777...................... 296 Wilderness Watch, et al.: Letter for the Record........................................ 303 Wolper, Steven: Letter for the Record........................................ 307 Wyden, Hon. Ron: Opening Statement............................................ 2 Yoder, Chris: Statement for the Record..................................... 308 __________ This official record contains a random selection of statements for the record submitted for this hearing. A complete record of all statements submitted for the record is on file with the Senate Energy Committee. The text for each of the bills addressed at this hearing can be found on the committee's website at: http://www.energy.senate.gov/public/ index.cfm/hearings-and-business-meetings? ID=A9500EE4-7F6A-400F-8C58- 1F2C5A3CFF93. PENDING LEGISLATION ---------- THURSDAY, APRIL 21, 2016 U.S. Senate, Subcommittee on Public Lands, Forests and Mining, Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:34 p.m. in Room SD-366, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. John Barrasso, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARRASSO, U.S. SENATOR FROM WYOMING Senator Barrasso. The Subcommittee will come to order. The purpose of today's hearing is to receive testimony on nine bills pending before this Subcommittee. Three of these bills designate hundreds of thousands of acres of new wilderness and add hundreds of miles of river segments to the National Wild and Scenic Rivers System. These include: S. 1423, the Central Coast Heritage Protection Act, sponsored by Senator Boxer; S. 1510, the Wild Olympic Wilderness and Wild and Scenic Rivers Act, sponsored by Senator Murray; and S. 1699, the Oregon Wildlands Act, sponsored by Senator Wyden. Already 110 million acres of lands have been added to the wilderness system. Additionally, tens of millions of acres are protected as ``roadless'' by the Forest Service and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM). In my view we must take a more balanced approach between adding lands to the wilderness system and Congress releasing lands. The agency currently manages wilderness study areas to be managed in accordance with the land management plans. These bills also propose to designate thousands of acres of potential wilderness. Potential wilderness gives the agency authority to remove all uses prohibited by the Wilderness Act on multiple use lands and provides the agency with discretionary authority at some future date to convert potential wilderness to designated wilderness without needing any additional authority or approval from Congress. This is troubling to me as it could have far reaching impacts for the management of our forests and our public lands. Today we also have two Idaho bills on the agenda that revisit past wilderness and wild and scenic river designations. Senator Crapo's bill, S. 1167, the Owyhee Wilderness Areas Boundary Modifications Act, would authorize the continued use of motorized vehicles to herd livestock in certain wilderness areas. Senator Risch's bill, S. 1777, would amend the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act to maintain or replace certain facilities and structures at Smith Gulch. In these two cases Congress needs to provide further direction to the agencies so we can actually carry out the legislative intent. The remaining four bills on the agenda include: S. 2018, to convey a federal reversionary interest in Glennallen, Alaska, sponsored by Chairman Murkowski; S. 2223, to transfer administrative jurisdiction over certain BLM land to the VA for inclusion in the Black Hills National Cemetery, sponsored by Senator Thune; S. 2379, to convey a federal reversionary interest to the City of Tucson, sponsored by Senator Flake; and S. 2383, to withdraw certain BLM outside the Utah Test and Training Range (UTTR) to facilitate and enhance weapons testing and pilot training at the Air Force, sponsored by Senator Hatch and Senator Lee. So I want to thank all of our witnesses for being here today. I would now like to turn to Senator Wyden for any opening remarks or comments he would like to add. STATEMENT OF HON. RON WYDEN, U.S. SENATOR FROM OREGON Senator Wyden. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. We are going to look at important public lands bills today, and I especially appreciate the inclusion of my Oregon Wildlands bill. There are important challenges here, and I am just going to touch on a few. One is the Frank Moore Wild Steelhead Sanctuary Act, which is a bill to honor a World War II hero and conservationist in Oregon. I look forward to working with my colleagues on this Committee to find a way to honor his legacy. I also have two Oregon tribal bills, the Coos and the Cow Creek bills. Helping these tribes has been important to me since I was Chair of this full Committee, because they provide these tribes with the land base that they deserve. I appreciate the continued efforts of the Chair and the Ranking Member of the Committee and their staffs on helping me get these bills over the finish line. With respect to my bill on the agenda today, the Oregon Wildlands Act is a compilation of several wilderness and wild and scenic provisions that were included in my O&C bill. So this is actually the second time these bills have been heard in this Committee, because the Committee held a hearing on the O&C bill last July. I know the Committee has received many letters of support for the legislation from groups across Oregon representing conservation, fish and wildlife, and sportsmen's interests. I also appreciate the continued support and commitment from the Bureau of Land Management and the Forest Service to work with me on this important bill. The Oregon Wildlands Act designates hundreds of miles of rivers in Oregon as wild and scenic. It expands wilderness for some of Oregon's most treasured areas and protects over 100,000 acres as National Recreation Areas. My state is a special place, and it has remarkable natural features and diverse landscapes that lend themselves to a variety of recreational pursuits. We essentially have it all. Climbing, hiking, bird watching, we have everything. That is why the bill is so important. The qualities that make Oregon's natural treasures unique are exactly the reasons for protecting them, and I want to make sure that our kids and our grandkids can enjoy them for years to come and continue to support the ecosystems and wildlife that depend on them. The Oregon Wildlands Act was a part of my O&C bill, and I am just going to take a quick minute to talk about that. Unlike other forestry proposals that are out there, and the recently released Bureau of Land Management Resource Management Plan, this legislation is different. My O&C bill would double the harvest compared to the average harvest over the last decade, and it would ensure lasting protections for Oregon's special places. With tough forestry and conservation issues, you always face the same challenge. I am looking down the dais and all of us, as Westerners in particular, understand what this is about. Not everybody is going to get what they asked for, and nobody is going to get everything they think they deserve. The question is in the West can you come up with a challenge so that all of the responsible parties get what they need? Looking down the row and to Senator Heinrich, I think all of us as Westerners have been through that, and that, in my view, sums up the challenge. Finally, I want to talk for a moment about Senator Crapo's Owyhee bill. I know the wilderness management issues are difficult in his state, just as they are for all of us as Westerners. Senator Crapo has worked very hard to bring diverse interest groups together to pass the Owyhee Wilderness bill in 2009. And of course, again, as Westerners we know that is the way you go about this right. My understanding is the Bureau of Land Management recently changed its policies on grazing within these wilderness areas which the ranchers believe are inconsistent with what they agreed to in 2009. So I want to just state, in wrapping up, my commitment to work with Senator Crapo to thread the needle on this to find a solution that is consistent with the Wilderness Act and also with the grazing language that was included in the original Owyhee Wilderness bill. Again, I want to thank Chairman Barrasso for his help on including the Oregon Wildlands Act today and for our witnesses. I hope they will excuse my bad manners. The last plane for Oregon leaves in a little bit, so that is going to be my immediate challenge. I really appreciate you all being here, and we look forward especially to working with you on the Oregon Wildlands bill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Wyden. We have some sponsors of initial legislation here with us. I think Senator Lee was the first to arrive if you would like to make any statement regarding your legislation? STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE LEE, U.S. SENATOR FROM UTAH Senator Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thanks to all of you for being here. This is an important issue to our state. We are grateful for the fact that you are willing to include S. 2383 in the hearing this afternoon. The Enhancement of the Utah Test and Training Range is an issue that the Utah delegation, both in the House of Representatives and here in the Senate, feel is great importance to our national security and the capabilities of the Air Force. As a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, I have had the opportunity this year to question Air Force leaders on the importance of readying our nation's test and training ranges for fifth generation weapons systems and technology. Lieutenant General John Raymond, the Deputy Chief of Staff for the Air Force Operations, told the Airline Subcommittee on March 8th that enhancing training is, ``something that is going to be absolutely critical for our readiness going forward,'' and that the Air Force will put nearly $1 billion in FY'17 to make sure that the ranges have the capabilities and the air space that they need to address these high end threats and to test the systems that we need. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Lee. Senator Flake, is there anything you would like to add about your legislation? STATEMENT OF HON. JEFF FLAKE, U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA Senator Flake. Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate this being talked about today. This would simply provide for the unencumbering of title to non-federal land owned by the City of Tucson for purposes of economic development to buy a conveyance of the federal reversionary interest to the city. We know this was a deal that was done in 1989 and it was done with an equal land exchange at that time, but somehow BLM does not see it that way. The City of Tucson would simply like the full use of this land. This legislation would just complete the transaction that began in 1989. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Flake. Senator Risch. STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES RISCH, U.S. SENATOR FROM IDAHO Senator Risch. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I have two pieces of legislation that I would like to speak to briefly. First of all, I have a lengthy statement on each one which I would ask unanimous consent to put in the record. Senator Barrasso. Without objection. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Senator Risch. S. 1177 is simply a bill that would allow for one of the lodges that is on the Salmon River to obtain permits in order to use certain motorized equipment. This is on private property and it was never the intention, I don't believe, of anyone to stop that. This would very clearly allow them to use the kinds of things that they need to maintain the things that are there, not necessarily to improve. As usual this is a government-made problem, and this will resolve it. Interestingly enough the local Forest Service people say well they don't have the authority to issue such a permit. The higher-ups say that they do have the authority and the testimony I am reading today from the Forest Service says, ``The Department opposes Senate bill 1777 because it would create a negative precedent for other commercial recreation service providers on wild and scenic rivers across the nation. We hope to work with Senator Risch and Senator Crapo to find a solution that is mutually beneficial to their constituents and the Forest Service.'' So I have got a real good solution. Issue the permits, then we really do not need this legislation. Again, this is very diminimus in the overall scheme of things. It was the intent always, when all of this was passed, that the private landholders could continue to operate they have traditionally been operating. I will be interested to hear the Forest Service position on that. Hopefully it is more than just in this, what I have in this prepared statement. Secondly, I am helping Senator Crapo on Senate bill 1167. Senate bill 1167 is another government-made problem. Senator Crapo worked very hard with the people. It was a collaborative sort of thing in order to get this particular wilderness put in place. What it did allow for is the people who were running cattle out there to continue running cattle and to do it the way they have always done it. Now for those of you who do not run cattle, I can tell you that every year we have to go out and gather the cattle. There are a couple of ways you do it. One is on a horse. One is on a four-wheeler. If you are down in Owyhee County, you want to be on a four-wheeler because you can cover about ten times the amount of ground on a four-wheeler that you can on a horse. It's always been allowed, but the BLM has modified its rules since the original bill was passed and they are now trying to prohibit four-wheelers on the ranchers that are operating down there. What this bill does is simply allow us, again, to go back with what was the understanding. Interestingly enough, this is supported by our flagship conservation group in Idaho, the Idaho Conservation League, Rivers United which is our flagship group when it comes to wild and scenic rivers, the Wilderness Society and the Pew Foundation. All these people know that this is what was intended. With that, Mr. Chairman, I will yield back. Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much, Senator Risch. At this time, we will turn to our witnesses. At the end of the witness testimony we will begin a round of questions. The witnesses' full written testimony will be made part of the official hearing record. We will ask you to please keep your statements to five minutes so that we may have time for questions. The witnesses include: Mr. Glenn Casamassa, who is the Associate Deputy Chief of the U.S. Forest Service; Mr. Mike Pool, who is the Acting Deputy Director of the Bureau of Land Management; Major General Martin Whelan, who is the Director of Future Operations at the U.S. Department of the Air Force, and you are accompanied by Ms. Jennifer Miller, who is the Deputy Assistant Secretary regarding Installations. So welcome to all of you. If we could start with you, Mr. Casamassa. STATEMENT OF GLENN CASAMASSA, ASSOCIATE DEPUTY CHIEF, NATIONAL FOREST SYSTEM, U.S. FOREST SERVICE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Mr. Casamassa. Yes, Mr. Chairman, members of the Subcommittee, my name is Glenn Casamassa and I serve as the Associate Deputy Chief for the National Forest System. There are four bills I've been asked to address, and I have provided written testimony for the record. S. 1423, the Central Coast Heritage Protection Act, designates National Forest System lands on the Los Padres National Forest in California as wilderness and additional to existing wilderness and designates potential wilderness areas, scenic areas and a national recreation trail. The legislation also directs the Forest Service to study creating a connection between the northern and southern portions of the Los Padres using a trail corridor, directs the Forest Service to study the feasibility of opening a new trail to an existing off-highway vehicle trail and additional access to wilderness scenic areas and potential wilderness areas by Indian tribes for traditional, cultural and religious purposes. The Department is generally supportive of the 24 additions of the eight existing wilderness areas and the designation of the new Diablo Caliente Wilderness and would like to work with the bill's sponsor and the Subcommittee to develop legislative maps and additional language to clarify the intentions of some portions of the bill. The Department supports the Wild and Scenic River designation and will provide more details on the suitability, eligibility and classification information with the bill's sponsors and the Subcommittee to facilitate as much consistency as possible between the agency's findings and the river segments proposed for designation in the bill. Senate bill 1510, the Wild Olympic Wilderness and Wild and Scenic River Act of 2015, would designate new and expand existing wilderness areas, potential wilderness areas and certain rivers in the Olympic National Forest and Olympic National Park as wild and scenic rivers. The Department supports designation of suitable rivers to the national wild and scenic river system as well as the new wilderness areas and additions to existing wilderness in S. 1510. The Department would like to work with the bill's sponsors and the Subcommittee on aspects of the bill such as the identification of potential locations of future restoration or habitat improvements, on language to be included in the bill that affords reasonable time for completion of the required comprehensive river management plan and boundary modifications to ensure that the boundaries are crafted to best support the agency's ability to manage and preserve wilderness characteristics. Senate bill 1699, the Oregon Wildlands Acts, would designate new and expand existing wilderness areas and would designate certain rivers in the Rogue River--Siskiyou in the Siuslaw National Forest as Wild and Scenic rivers. In summary, the Department is supportive of the following portions of the bill: Designate rivers and streams on National Forest System land as part of the National Wild and Scenic Rivers and defer to the Department of Interior in regard to the proposal to designate rivers and streams flowing on lands administered by the BLM; supportive of the technical changes that amend the existing designation in the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act as they provide a more appropriate naming convention and better reflect management classification and correction; supportive of the technical correction to remove the offensive name of the designation of Squaw Creek to Whychus Creek and other name designations; supportive of the designation of wilderness additions to the Wild Rogue Wilderness that has both BLM and U.S. Forest Service parcels; and, as we have previously testified in July of 2015 in support of Senate bill 132, the Oregon and California Land Grant Act of 2015, the designation of the Devil's Staircase Wilderness which would include transfer of administrative jurisdiction of 49-acre parcel managed by the BLM to the Forest Service to be managed as part of the Siuslaw National Forest as site of cultural significance to the Coos, Lower Umpqua and Siuslaw Indians. The Department would also like to work with the Subcommittee on some potential amendments and map revisions that we believe would improve this bill. With respect to Senate bill 1777, to amend the Wild and Scenic River, the Department opposes the amendment to the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act because it would create a negative precedent for other commercial recreation services providers on wild and scenic rivers across the country. The facilities and structures for commercial recreation services at Smith Gulch in Idaho are authorized and operated under a 20-year term, special use permit to the River of No Return Lodge Incorporated issued and administered by the Salmon Challis National Forest. This permit is issued with provisions and terms similar to those of recreation facilities throughout the National Forest System. The permit takes into account the location and surrounding of facilities improvements the public values if affected by such an operation and any specific public health and safety concerns. The Department encourages the operator or the recreation services business at Smith Gulch to work with the appropriate local Forest Service official to revise any issues related to their existing permit. This concludes my remarks of the four bills. I'd be happy to answer any questions. Thank you for the opportunity. [The prepared statement of Mr. Casamassa follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much for your testimony. Mr. Pool. STATEMENT OF MIKE POOL, ACTING DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OPERATIONS, BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR Mr. Pool. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Ranking Member, and members of the Subcommittee. I am Mike Pool, the BLM Acting Deputy Director for Operations. Thank you for the opportunity to present this testimony today which will briefly summarize our written statements. Senate bill 1167 focuses on the boundaries and the management of six wilderness areas in the Owyhee Canyonlands regions of Idaho. The Department acknowledges the dedicated efforts of the stakeholders to collaborate on issues concerning wilderness management in this region and we generally support stakeholder driven efforts to redefine management boundaries; however, the Department strongly opposes this bill because it proposes broad management changes that will lift the central protections from the wilderness areas. We would like to work, take the opportunity to continue to work with Senator Crapo and the Subcommittee on a balanced approach to issues concerning roadless management in this region. Senate bill 1423 would designate three wilderness areas on BLM managed land within the Carrizo Plain National Monument in California, establish the Black Mountain Scenic Area on lands managed by the BLM and the Forest Service and designate or expand nine wilderness areas within the Los Padres National Forest, two of which would include BLM-managed public lands. The Department supports this bill as it pertains to lands managed by the BLM and would like to work with Senator Boxer and the Subcommittee to address various technical concerns including ensuring consistency with the 2010 Carrizo Plain RMP and correcting various references to other laws. Senate bill 1699 would establish two new National Recreation Areas on forest lands in Western Oregon, protect over 280 miles of Oregon rivers under the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act and establish new conservation designations in Western Oregon. The Department shares the goals to protect, conserve and enhance the unique recreational and natural resources of the proposed recreational areas and support the bill's conservation designations. We would like to work with Senator Wyden and the Subcommittee on clarifying the impact of the management language for the proposed recreational areas on existing commercial, recreation and timber production activities and to provide updated maps that are more closely tailored and aligned to the various designations in the bill. Senate bill 2018, relating to Glennallen, Alaska and Senate bill 2379 relating to Utah Park in Tucson, Arizona would require the Department to convey without consideration reversionary interest in two parcels pending under the Recreation of Public Persons Act. The Department supports the goal of conveying the reversionary interest in both of these bills and could support them if they were amended to ensure the payment of fair market value for the conveyance of the reversionary interest. Senate bill 2223 would transfer approximately 200 acres of public land to the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to be incorporated into the Black Hills National Cemetery in South Dakota. The Department supports this bill and we look forward to working with the state's congressional delegation and the Subcommittee to meet the needs of the Black Hills National Cemetery. Senate bill 2383. As introduced Senate bill 2383 provides for the limited use and short-term closure of approximately 700,000 acres of public lands surrounding Utah Test and Training Range by the United States Air Force. The bill would also direct a large land exchange between the BLM and the State of Utah and recognizes the existence and validity of unsubstantiated rights of way claims, RS2477. The Department supports the military's periodic limited use of the lands surrounding the UTTR and we support the concept of major land exchanges like this one that further the public interest, consolidate ownership of scattered tracks of land to make them more manageable and enhance resource protection. We do not, however, support the withdrawal for the proposed share use area. We also strongly oppose the resolution of unsubstantiated rogue claims in the manner laid out in the bill. We appreciate the efforts of Senator Hatch and the Subcommittee to begin addressing the concerns we raised in our testimony on the House version of the bill, and we look forward to continuing our discussion. Finally, the National Park Service also submitted a statement for the record in support of Senate bill 1510, the Wild Olympic Wilderness and Wild and Scenic Rivers Act. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today, and I'll be glad to answer any questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Pool follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much. General. STATEMENT OF MAJOR GENERAL MARTIN WHELAN, DIRECTOR OF FUTURE OPERATIONS, DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR OPERATIONS, HEADQUARTERS, U.S. AIR FORCE; ACCOMPANIED BY JENNIFER L. MILLER, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR INSTALLATIONS, U.S. AIR FORCE General Whelan. Chairman Barrasso, Ranking Member, distinguished members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to come before you to discuss this important issue, specifically the need to balance responsible land management with evolving military requirements at the Utah Test and Training Range. If enacted, S. 2383, would provide the Air Force the capability to employ larger weapons safety buffers at the Utah Test and Training Range or UTTR, through the temporary closure and use of some current BLM land and any state land transferred to BLM. This would be accomplished at little additional cost and with no disruption to the historically responsible environmental management of these prized lands. The Air Force believes the bill's concept of short periodic closures is the best way to serve the public's interest while addressing both the Air Force's emerging operational requirements and the Department of Interior's effective stewardship of these lands. The Air Force's operational capabilities are advancing at a rate that challenges the geographic boundaries of the ranges. These constraints compromise effective tests and evaluation and our ability to conduct realistic and relevant live training. One important aspect driving the need for larger geographic containment is the increasing size of weapon safety footprints. For safety reasons it is vital that the Air Force control for the duration of a mission. Access to the areas oppose even a remote risk to the public from debris or components should the weapons event fail. The Air Force's enviable test safety record is testimony to this extraordinary level of caution. In the last 20 months the Air Force expended over 27,000 munitions in support of Operation Inherent Resolve which is more than we expended during all of Operation Iraqi Freedom. The Air Force's involvement in such combat operations is not expected to decrease in the near future. A well-trained force and continued testing and training of our improved combat capabilities are critical to our continued success supporting these operations. Technological advances incorporated in both our legacy and newest combat aircraft and the weapons associated with those systems represent an unprecedented leap in combat capability. These advances enable crews to identify and engage multiple targets from greater distances with improved accuracy. This technology that enables the greater employment distances and increases precision drives the need for larger segments of range and buffer lands. Safely containing large footprint weapons testing historically accomplished at the UTTR is especially challenging. Some standoff weapons footprints soon exceed the capability of our existing range enterprise configuration to provide the superior live weapons testing and tactics techniques and procedure validation that have long been a U.S. strategic advantage in combat capability and readiness. We are working diligently and creatively to overcome these limitations. In some cases, we've relied on modeling and simulation to accomplish the specific events. In other cases, we simply accept certain levels of artificiality that degrade the training quality for live events at the local and regional levels. Given these gradual drifts from realistic training and realistic reliance on simulation it is absolutely imperative we sustain certain irreplaceable live environments, like the UTTR, to accomplish these unique and uncompromising tests and training events. In the past and under select circumstances the Department of Defense components have assumed administrative jurisdiction over buffer lands with full responsibility for land management. Generally however, it is neither efficient nor cost effective for the services to expend resources on full time land management when all that is required is brief periods of restricted access. This bill is similar to legislation allowing the overlap of weapons safety footprints on the Cabeza Prieta in Arizona. That example, commonly decided by the Air Force in how to successfully enable military missions while minimizing the impact on other agencies and the public. If enacted, S. 2383 would likewise provide the Air Force a much needed capability through brief closures to BLM land and any state land transferred to the BLM. We believe this bill's concept of short periodic closures would serve the public interest better than the alternative of complete withdrawal. We recognize the Administration continues to have concerns with several provisions of S. 2383 that we may create challenges for effective management of these lands. We welcome the opportunity to continue working with the sponsors and the Department of the Interior to address these concerns. I thank you for the opportunity to come before you and I welcome any questions. [The prepared statement of General Whelan follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Senator Barrasso. Thank you so very much. Ms. Miller, do you have anything to offer in addition? I know you are here primarily in a support role. Ms. Miller. Supporting role, Chairman. Senator Barrasso. Thank you very much. We will turn to the questioning now with Senator Lee. Senator Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your willingness to accommodate my schedule. General Whelan, can you tell us why it is important from an Air Force readiness standpoint to have the UTTR expanded and enhanced as soon as possible, especially given that both the 388th and the 419th fighter wings are already out there this year trying to achieve F35 Iowa City this year? General Whelan. Thank you, Senator, and I appreciate the opportunity to explain the importance of the Utah Test and Training Range in this particular legislation to help us with our training, our tactics, techniques and procedures development and effectively the readiness of the force. As our new generation fighters, the F35 and F22, have longer ranges and the weapons with them have longer ranges, we effectively can engage weapons at a distance that preserves the capabilities that we have and the people that fly our weapons. So by employing those weapons at longer distances the probability of something going wrong covers a greater land mass. And through this legislation by increasing these buffer areas we're able to do realistic testing without any of the artificialities that we currently have to put in place to enable the live testing, realistic testing, that we do to enhance our capability. We also support the fact that we don't need this access 24/ 7, 365 days a year. And so by allowing these buffer lands with the periodic shortages, not to exceed three hours, not to exceed 100 hours a year, allow us to do our effective training while also maintaining the access to the lands and the programs that are effectively run by the Department of Interior. Senator Lee. So this plan really does minimize the impact on surrounding communities, the inconvenience anybody else might suffer? Tell us what it would do though if we do not get this done in a timely manner? What kind of impact would that have on the Air Force? What would be the consequence of that? General Whelan. Sir, if we don't get the opportunity to make the changes that are brought forth in this legislation we'll continue to have to work on a case by case basis for each of the tests that we do. Our process is set up that we program testing and training long in advance. We program through Congress for the funding to do all the testing, development and then the training of our crews and without this legislation we'll have to continue to de-conflict on a more manpower intensive basis than through the procedures that are being allowed for under this legislation. Senator Lee. Thus limiting the ability that we would otherwise have to take full advantage of this new technology, this new platform, this new weapons system? General Whelan. Yes, sir. It would limit our ability to test. For instance, today, to make sure that the footprint stays sufficiently small, we either reduce the speed of the aircraft that we would normally use to engage the weapon which is an artificiality because in combat we won't do that or we come down in altitude and actually dispense the weapon at a lower altitude to bring down that area which we wouldn't normally do in a contested environment. So by allowing the buffer zone we're able to maintain the range space and the buffer zones that we need to do this training and effectively train our crews to go into combat, should that become necessary. Senator Lee. Okay. In that case we need to get this done, don't we? General Whelan. Yes, sir. Senator Lee. Thank you very much, General. General Whelan. Thank you, sir. Senator Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Lee. Senator Heinrich. Senator Heinrich. Mr. Chairman, first let me ask unanimous consent to put into the record statements from Senator Patty Murray on S. 1610 and Senator Barbara Boxer on S. 1423. Senator Barrasso. Without objection. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Senator Heinrich. Mr. Casamassa, let me start with you. There seems to be a little bit of confusion around S. 1777. You heard my colleague at the beginning, Senator Risch of Idaho, state that this commercial lodge is on private land. My understanding is that it is on Forest Service titled land. Who actually owns the title to this property? Mr. Casamassa. Senator, the National Forest. It's on National Forest System lands. Senator Heinrich. So it is actually on public land not on private land? Mr. Casamassa. On public land and it is permitted on as it relates to the public land. Senator Heinrich. Okay, that is very helpful to clear that up. Major General Whelan, it is great to see you again. I want to ask you a couple of questions about the Utah Test and Training Range legislation. First, let me say that I support the intent of this legislation, and I think we will get there on this because it is quite important. But I wanted to ask you, in particular, about Title III which seems to be somewhat incongruent with the rest of this legislation. This section of the bill grants nearly 6,000 miles of rights-of-way across three Utah counties. Is Title III of H.R. 4579 in any way driven by military necessity? General Whelan. Thank you for the question, sir. From an Air Force operational perspective, we're looking for the contiguous support but if I may have Ms. Miller, see if---- Senator Heinrich. Sure. General Whelan. She's more the detail for our specific land use part of the mission area. Senator Heinrich. That would be fine. Ms. Miller. Yes, Senator. The Air Force doesn't have any particular equity in Title III. We understand that there may be some concerns with Department of Interior and BLM, but there's no operational requirement for that provision from the Air Force perspective. Senator Heinrich. And it was not drafted in response to any request from the Air Force? Ms. Miller. Correct, Senator. Senator Heinrich. Great, that is very helpful. Director Pool, is the land exchange in S. 2383 a result of a negotiation between the BLM and the state and have you gone through the typical exchange decision-making process in this case? Mr. Pool. Senator, I think there's been some informal discussions regarding both respective sets of properties. But I think we're still on the front end in that this would be a, at least under our authority, it would come under FLPMA. Senator Heinrich. Right. Mr. Pool. And that we would have to proceed with an inventory process of values associated with public lands. And we're going to have to address the suitability and public interest determinations through the NEPA analysis process. So that's, kind of, where we're at at this stage. Senator Heinrich. Having not done NEPA or gotten that far down the road yet on this, are you aware of any sensitive public resources in this area? Mr. Pool. I think there's some cultural resources. There's some historic mining districts. There's some greater sage grouse habitat associated with some of these parcels. So I think we're just going to have to do a more intensive evaluation of all parcels and make a determination of whether or not they should be transferred out of federal ownership. Senator Heinrich. What about tribal consultation? Is any tribal consultation-- Mr. Pool. That would occur as part of the exchange NEPA process. Senator Heinrich. Okay. Mr. Pool. We would indeed do that. Senator Heinrich. I also wanted to switch gears to Owyhee country. I am wondering if you can help us better understand the lay of the land with the grazing guidelines that govern grazing in national wilderness areas. I am going to read a short section from the motorized vehicle use section. ``Where practical alternatives do not exist, maintenance or other activities may be accomplished through the occasional use of motorized equipment. The use of motorized equipment should be based on a rule of practical necessity and reasonableness. Moreover, under the rule of reasonableness, occasional use of motorized equipment should be permitted where practical alternatives are not available and such use would not have a significant adverse impact on the natural environment.'' The way that I understand that is typically interpreted is, for example, if you have to do an activity like taking silt out of a silted in stock tank, something where the only practical way to do that in many cases is to go in once every 10-15 years with a backhoe, dig that out under permit, and then you are done. Whereas, if say you are just mending a fence and you can take your T bars and your fence post pounders and things on horseback, then that would be required as the least impactful tool in that case. Can you talk a little bit about those guidelines and what they mean for areas like this? Mr. Pool. I can. Your scenarios are good analogies of what we can authorize by basically going through what we call a minimum effects analysis. We address those on a case by case depending on the type of access the permitee needed prior to wilderness designation, and it varies. But we go through, first of all, we have to determine if it's even necessary. And if so, then we go through a range of alternatives including motorized, non-motorized and it's on a case by case. So, I think we try to be fair and practical in working with our permitees to provide the needed access they need to have to get into some of these improvements. Senator Heinrich. Thank you very much. Senator Barrasso. I have just a couple of questions for Mr. Casamassa and Mr. Pool. Today we are considering several pieces of legislation. When you combine it all it would designate almost a half a million acres, 458,194 acres, of new wilderness. That number does not include another 625,000 acres of BLM lands withdrawn for national security purposes or the additional 118,000 acres of BLM lands recommended for withdrawal and repurposing as national recreation areas even though these areas would not allow the use of motorized vehicles on permanent or temporary roads. I would like to talk about one specific category of land withdrawal that I mentioned in the opening statement. This is the idea of potential wilderness. Between S. 1423, S. 1510 and S. 1699, there are almost 50,000 acres, about 48,900 acres, of land recommended for this designation as potential wilderness. So, it is a lot of land. The 1964 Wilderness Act did not really provide for a category called potential wilderness. It had other categories, but not a category for potential wilderness. So while the National Park Service Act of 1976 established a category for potential wilderness, it did so for National Park System units only. So both the BLM and the Forest Service have lands in these bills that would be designated as this new category, this potential wilderness land, which are currently lands used as multiple use. Could you explain a little bit about how your agencies plan to use a potential wilderness designation to convert land from multiple use to designated wilderness? How does this all work? Mr. Casamassa. Senator, one of the things that we'd have to do is assess what the non-conforming uses are within the potential wilderness areas, determine the impacts of those and then consider how we would then mitigate those uses in those areas and eventually reduce those non-conforming uses in order to then phase that into designated wilderness. Senator Barrasso. Mr. Pool, would you like to add additional comments? Mr. Pool. Yes. We have two methods by which the wilderness designations could result within BLM. The first authority was 603 under the Federal Land Policy and Management Act (FLPMA). It directed the agencies to inventory public lands for wilderness characteristics, determine the suitability for wilderness management and produce wilderness suitability reports and report to Congress. Those currently exist throughout the Western range lands, and only Congress can either release or designate those areas wilderness. The other authority that we use as part of our planning is under FLPMA 201. That requires us to maintain an ongoing inventory of resource values associated with public lands and that does include wilderness characteristics. So if we're going through a planning process or if we acquire new lands, just like we inventory all other natural resources, we do inventory for wilderness characteristics and we maintain those values in their current form. That's what we do today. So there's two different authorities that help us manage the wilderness program. Senator Barrasso. Mr. Casamassa, back with you looking at this wild Olympics bill, S. 1510. In 2012 the Port of Port Angeles released an economic impact analysis. They detailed the implications of S. 1510. The study concluded that the wilderness designation would result in reduced timber yields, and they said that there were more than 400 jobs, intersector jobs, in terms of job losses in the region. This legislation is going to add over 125,000 acres of Olympic National Forest to the wilderness tally. Could you just explain a little bit of how the Forest Service plan to reduce allowable acreage available for timber harvest on the peninsula would work without impacting yields and how would that work and the implications are consistent with that study from 2012? Mr. Casamassa. Yes, Mr. Chairman, the--we estimate that it is approximately eight percent of that total, 123,000 acres that are currently in suitable timber management areas. That certainly would be, you know, those 10,000 acres would be collectively reduced from the overall timber base and the lands that we would manage as forest management. There would be some level of impact, but given that it's 10,000 acres, it would be somewhat minimal based on the significance of it all. Senator Barrasso. Senator Heinrich. Senator Heinrich. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Casamassa, I understand that the goal of S. 1777 is to allow the installation of solar panels on the cabins at Smith Gulch. But I have to admit I was a little confused to see lawn mowers, weed trimmers and hydroelectric generation and transmission facilities listed as equipment that would be allowed under the legislation as they do not seem to be related to the installation of solar panels. Can you shed any light on why that equipment is included in that legislation? Mr. Casamassa. Senator, as far as the way that the terms and conditions of the existing permit for that facility reads there are limitations as to what, if anything, would be permitted in addition to what is presently being permitted. These are requests that are being made, and we don't necessarily believe that they're in conformance with the terms and conditions of the permit authorized to not only this outfitting and guide camp but adjacent outfitting and guide camps along the river corridor as well. Senator Heinrich. Great. That's very helpful. As a former outfitter guide, I see where you're coming from. I want to say just a word about S. 1510. I support Senator Murray's Wild Olympics bill which was carefully designed, frankly, to protect and grow the local outdoor recreation economy on Washington's Olympic peninsula. The bill provides permanent protections to important wildlife habitat and recreation land. It protects the health of rivers and streams that provide drinking water to thousands of Washingtonians. I hope there are at least a few salmon in those. It supports the robust shellfish industry as well and seeks to improve the health of Puget Sound. I have heard from Senator Murray that her bill is supported by thousands of Washington residents including many on the Olympic peninsula, local and national recreation and conservation organizations, outdoor recreation companies and local elected leaders. I just wanted to put on the table my support for that legislation, and I look forward to working with her to accomplish that. Finally, before we wrap up, I will just leave one last commentary and then turn it back over to the Chair. We have heard a little bit today about multiple use versus wilderness. That is a little bit, to me, as a former outfitter guide, of an apples and oranges comparison simply because wilderness is multiple use. Grazing is allowed in wilderness. Hunting is allowed in wilderness. Fishing is allowed in wilderness. I was a guide in wilderness areas, so obviously, recreation as well. So while it does come with certain limitations, it also comes with a multiple use mindset that is not completely incongruous with the overall multiple use mandate that our public land agencies have. Thank you all. Senator Barrasso. Thank you, Senator Heinrich. Mr. Pool, when the original Owyhee initiative began in 2000 it was a collaborative effort between diverse stakeholders including the Shoshone-Paiute tribe, ranchers and locals, state governments, environmental groups, people working together. The collaboration resulted in the Owyhee Public Land Management Act of 2008. It was signed into law as part of the Omnibus Lands bill of 2009. At the time the legislation was negotiated, the BLM left the stakeholders with the impression that current permittees would be able to continue reasonable grazing activities on new wilderness land, including the use of motorized vehicles for herding and for routine inspections. That was the impression that was left. So can you tell us what led the BLM to revise that policy to now disallow the use of motorized equipment for herding and routine inspections in livestock management in this area where it had previously been allowed? Mr. Pool. Yeah, Mr. Chairman, I think that we've, our criteria, we feel like using motorized equipment, ATV-type applications, is not consistent with the purpose of the Wilderness Act or the values that are associated with that designation. We have worked with our permittees, continue to provide them as needed authorizations to use motorized vehicles to get to their improvements, and I think we've been very reasonable. But when you start using ATVs or motorcycles to herd cattle, we believe that is inconsistent with the purpose of the Wilderness Act. Senator Barrasso. I am going back to the impression that was left with the current permittees when all this collaborative effort came through. Does this decision then impact only the Owyhee Wilderness Area or will it also impact other wilderness areas with grazing permits? And if so, how many acres are we talking about and how many AUMs have been impacted by this decision or have all the permittees been given an opportunity to comment on this policy and this decision? Mr. Pool. Well, I don't know to what extent there are other wilderness areas that BLM manages where we would allow motorized vehicles for herding or gathering. I know of none. But many of our wilderness areas that we manage in BLM we do provide a continuation of livestock use in the designated wilderness areas. That's clearly afforded in the act itself. And then we continue to work with them, case-by-case basis, you know, on the minimal effects tools to determine if we can permit the permittee to use motorized vehicles, including in some cases heavy equipment, to maintain their grazing and permits. Senator Barrasso. Thank you. Senator Heinrich, do you have any additional questions? Senator Heinrich. No. Senator Barrasso. If not, I want to thank all of you for taking time to be with us today and for your testimony. Other members of the Committee may submit written questions to you. If they do, I hope that you will respond quickly in writing. The hearing record will be open for two weeks. Senator Barrasso. I want to thank all the witnesses for your time and testimony today. The hearing is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 3:24 p.m. the hearing was adjourned.] APPENDIX MATERIAL SUBMITTED ---------- [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]