[Senate Hearing 115-6177] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 115-6177 EXAMINING OMB'S MEMORANDUM ON THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE PART II: EXPERT VIEWS ON OMB'S ONGOING GOVERNMENT-WIDE REORGANIZATION ======================================================================= HEARING before the SUBCOMMITTEE ON REGULATORY AFFAIRS AND FEDERAL MANAGEMENT of the COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION ---------- SEPTEMBER 13, 2017 ---------- Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov/ Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] EXAMINING OMB'S MEMORANDUM ON THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE PART II EXPERT VIEWS ON OMB'S GOVERNMENT-WIDE REORGANIZATION S. Hrg. 115-177 EXAMINING OMB'S MEMORANDUM ON THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE PART II: EXPERT VIEWS ON OMB'S ONGOING GOVERNMENT WIDE REORGANIZATION ======================================================================= HEARING before the SUBCOMMITTEE ON REGULATORY AFFAIRS AND FEDERAL MANAGEMENT of the COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ SEPTEMBER 13, 2017 __________ Available via http://www.fdsys.gov Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 28-405 PDF WASHINGTON : 2018 ____________________________________________________________________ For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office, Internet:bookstore.gpo.gov. Phone:toll free (866)512-1800;DC area (202)512-1800 Fax:(202) 512-2104 Mail:Stop IDCC,Washington,DC 20402-001 COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin, Chairman JOHN McCAIN, Arizona CLAIRE McCASKILL, Missouri ROB PORTMAN, Ohio THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware RAND PAUL, Kentucky JON TESTER, Montana JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming GARY C. PETERS, Michigan JOHN HOEVEN, North Dakota MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire STEVE DAINES, Montana KAMALA D. HARRIS, California Christopher R. Hixon, Staff Director Margaret E. Daum, Minority Staff Director Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk SUBCOMMITTEE ON REGULATORY AFFAIRS AND FEDERAL MANAGEMENT JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma, Chairman JOHN MCCAIN, Arizona HEIDI HEITKAMP, North Dakota ROB PORTMAN, Ohio THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware MICHAEL B. ENZI, Wyoming MAGGIE HASSAN, New Hampshire STEVE DAINES, Montana KAMALA D. HARRIS, California John Cuaderes, Staff Director Clark Hedrick, Professional Staff Member Eric Bursch, Minority Staff Director Ashley Poling, Minority Counsel Katie Delacenserie, Subcommittee Clerk and Committee Archivist C O N T E N T S ------ Opening statement: Page Senator Lankford............................................. 1 Senator Heitkamp............................................. 3 Prepared statement: Senator Lankford............................................. 27 Senator Heitkamp............................................. 29 WITNESSES Wednesday, September 13, 2017 Robert Shea, Principal, Grant Thornton Public Sector............. 5 Rachel Greszler, Research Fellow in Economics, Budgets, and Entitlements, Heritage Foundation.............................. 6 Chris Edwards, Director, Tax Policy Studies, Cato Institute...... 8 Anthony M. Reardon, National President, National Treasury Union.. 10 Alphabetical List of Witnesses Edwards, Chris: Testimony.................................................... 8 Prepared statement........................................... 51 Greszler, Rachel: Testimony.................................................... 6 Prepared statement........................................... 40 Reardon, Anthony M.: Testimony.................................................... 10 Prepared statement........................................... 60 Shea, Robert: Testimony.................................................... 5 Prepared statement........................................... 31 APPENDIX Statements for the Record from: American Federation of Government Employees.................. 69 National Council of HUD Locals............................... 76 Heritage Foundation.......................................... 84 Hertiage Foundation Blueprint for Reorganization............. 273 Partnership for Public Service............................... 374 EXAMINING OMB'S MEMORANDUM ON THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE PART II: EXPERT VIEWS ON OMB'S ONGOING GOVERNMENT-WIDE REORGANIZATION ---------- WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 13, 2017 U.S. Senate, Subcommittee on Regulatory, Affairs and Federal Management, of the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m., in room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. James Lankford, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding. Present: Senators Lankford, Heitkamp, and Harris. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LANKFORD\1\ Senator Lankford. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to today's hearing entitled ``Examining OMB's Memorandum on the Federal Workforce Part II: Expert Views on OMB's Ongoing Government-wide Reorganization.'' Thank you all for being here, for our witnesses to be here, and for others that are engaged in this. This is the Subcommittee's second hearing on the Office of Management and Budget (OMB's) ongoing governmentwide reorganization effort. Let me give you some quick context. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Lankford appears in the Appendix on page 27. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Three months ago, we heard from four Executive Branch agencies regarding their plans and progress toward achieving the targets and deadlines outlined in OMB's memorandum titled ``Comprehensive Plan for Reforming the Federal Government and Reducing the Civilian Workforce.'' In our first hearing on the reorganization, the Departments of Commerce, Justice (DOJ), Agriculture (USDA), and Homeland Security (DHS) praised OMB's leadership and inclusive approach in managing the reorganization process to improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the Federal Government. These four agencies lauded OMB's decision to collect input from Federal employees, managers, executives--and most importantly-- the American people to streamline operations, eliminate duplicative programs, and reduce wasteful spending. Further, we learned that OMB provided agencies with an aggressive yet achievable timeline to complete and submit their proposals for consideration. Agencies were to submit three items to OMB by June 30, 2017: draft agency reform plans, plans to maximize employee performance, and progress reports on ``near-term workforce reduction actions.'' All four of those agencies we asked when they were here if they were going to meet their deadlines. All four agencies said, yes, they would meet those deadlines. By the end of September, agencies are supposed to incorporate OMB's feedback and submit their refined draft reform plans to OMB. At this point in the reorganization efforts, this Subcommittee has heard positive news from many Federal agencies regarding their progress toward achieving the OMB reorganization's goals. We are also well aware of the costly duplication of programs performed by different agencies across government--the reason for this whole study. Let me give you an example of that. The Government Accountability Office (GAO) keeps a running list of duplicative Federal programs. They have already identified 79 new examples this year, and currently GAO estimates that 395 such examples have not been fully addressed, that is, duplicative Federal programs. For example, the Federal Transit Administration (FTA) administers $3.6 billion in grants to be awarded toward transit resiliency projects. However, GAO reports that it is likely that the Federal Transit Administration grants duplicative funding that is also coming from other agencies. In addition to the Department of Justice Criminal Division, DOJ has four Divisions which operate their own separate criminal sections. Timely and common sense reorganization is something we should work towards in order to make government more responsive to the people it serves. Congress needs to be included in this process, especially if OMB plans to request executive reorganization authority or other legislative changes. The reformation of Federal bureaucracy should not be a partisan issue. In fact, it is something Presidents from both parties have done for more than 20 years. In his State of the Union address in 1996, President Clinton famously declared that the era of big government is over. He committed--this was his quote--``to give the American people a smaller, less bureaucratic government in Washington and one that lives within its means.'' Similarly, President Obama remarked that ``we live in a 21st Century economy, but we have still got a government organized for the 20th Century.'' President Obama went on to say, ``our economy has fundamentally changed--as has the world--but the government has not . . . The needs of our citizens have fundamentally changed but their government has not. Instead, it has often grown more complex.'' Presidents Clinton, Bush, and Obama all sought to reform the Federal Government to make it leaner and more efficient for the American people. All of them took steps to modernize and reform government, but the job is clearly not complete. We have a duty to put partisanship aside so that we can accomplish reform that is still so necessary. The Subcommittee intends to continue to work with this Administration to ensure this reorganization effort is transparent and ultimately successful. We look forward to hearing testimony from OMB on this matter in the near future. Thankfully, our four expert witnesses today are from a diverse array of outside groups, and they will provide the needed insight into OMB's approach and central role in implementing the reorganization. Today's witnesses possess prior Executive Branch experience and management reform expertise, which enables them to offer valuable perspectives on the reorganization. I have the privilege of serving thousands of Federal civil servants from Oklahoma, and I will seek to ensure this reorganization hears their input, improves their effectiveness as they serve the American people. That is what they love to do and what they are being impeded to do by our organizational structure. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today on how we can work together to deliver a successful reorganization to the American people. With that, I recognize Ranking Member Heitkamp for her opening remarks. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HEITKAMP\1\ Senator Heitkamp. Thank you, Chairman Lankford. I think in the last 2 weeks, we have seen no greater examples of the critical need for a trained, experienced, compassionate, and empathetic Federal workforce. And my great applause goes out to all the men and women of every agency of the military who have worked so hard to protect lives, protect property, and offer hope to so many people who are now in the process of recovery from both Hurricane Harvey and Hurricane Irma. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Senator Heitkamp appears in the Appendix on page 29. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- And so I think it is a wonderful backdrop to have this discussion because I think way too often hearings like this tend to be perceived to be critical of our great Federal workforce, and as Chairman Lankford just said, we represent amazing people who do amazing work who could find much more lucrative careers in the private sector, but choose instead to serve our public. And so my kudos and my great gratification for the work that is being done by the Federal workforce. I continue to believe that our Subcommittee's oversight of agency reorganization is absolutely essential. Federal employees are a critical part of the Federal Government. We cannot have government, our Nation, and citizens need without a strong, focused, and vibrant Federal workforce. While I greatly appreciate the time and insight from today's witnesses, I am disturbed that the Office of Management and Budget has declined our invitation to appear before the Subcommittee on this timely subject. There is no one closer to the heart of what is going on in this reorganization than OMB, and it is vital for our Subcommittee to understand the interplay between OMB and the Federal agencies that it is now seeking reform recommendations from. It is unacceptable that OMB chose to not testify at this hearing, and I am going to do everything that I can to try to ensure their presence at our next hearing on this topic, and I hope Chairman Lankford will join me in that effort. I also will be doing all that I can to protect our Federal workers, and I look forward to hearing about the impact that the reorganization process has on those workers thus far in today's hearing. Again, I thank the witnesses for their testimony. I greatly appreciate all of the time that it takes to participate in a hearing like this. I know it is not easy. Preparation of testimony is a critical component, and I look forward to your thoughtful comments on this reorganization process. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Lankford. I am glad to and I would say, Senator Heitkamp, absolutely we will engage with OMB. They are a critical aspect of this. The Administration and OMB sparked this. They have been receiving input from the agencies, and I would completely agree we need to be able to hear their input, what they are seeing in the direction they will go, especially, as I mentioned in my opening statement, if they are pursuing executive authority to do reorganization or certainly legislative authority to be able to do it. We have to be able to partner together. I would like to proceed to the testimony from our witnesses, and let me introduce all four of them. We will have the swearing in of those witnesses, and then we would be glad to be able to receive your testimony. Robert Shea is a principal at Grant Thornton where he leads the public sector strategy practice. Prior to that, he served in the Office of Management and Budget as Associate Director for Administration and Government Performance. Thanks for being here. Rachel Greszler is the research fellow in economics, budgets, and entitlements in the Institute for Economic Freedom and Opportunity at the Heritage Foundation. Before joining Heritage in 2013, she served as a senior economist on the Congressional Joint Economic Committee. Thanks for being here. Chris Edwards is the director of tax policy studies at Cato Institute. Before joining Cato, he served as a senior economist on the Congressional Joint Economic Committee. Thank you as well for your insight again. Tony Reardon is a 25-year veteran of the National Treasury Employees Union (NTEU), where he has worked in a variety of leadership roles. He has served as the national president of the union since his election in August 2015. Thanks for bringing your insight to us today. It is the custom of this Subcommittee to swear in all witnesses that appear before us, so if you would please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this Subcommittee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God? Mr. Shea. I do. Ms. Greszler. I do. Mr. Edwards. I do. Mr. Reardon. I do. Senator Lankford. Thank you. You may be seated. Let the record reflect all witnesses answered in the affirmative. We are very pleased that you are here. You all have given tremendous written testimony to us already which will be a part of the permanent record, and we are looking forward to your oral testimony and then Senator Heitkamp and I peppering you with questions on this as we walk through the process together. So, Mr. Shea, you are first up. TESTIMONY OF ROBERT SHEA,\1\ PRINCIPAL, GRANT THORNTON PUBLIC SECTOR Mr. Shea. Thank you, Chairman Lankford, Ranking Member Heitkamp, Members of the Subcommittee, for the privilege of testifying before you today. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Shea appears in the Appendix on page 31. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If implemented properly, the President's Executive Order (EO) on reorganization could be the most ambitious reorganization of the Federal Government in its history. To be successful, a great deal of collaboration with myriad stakeholders within and outside the Executive Branch will be critical, and that is just on the front end. The real work begins when organizations launch the process of integration and optimization. But we should not even begin this process unless we agree on what outcomes we are trying to accomplish. Optimizing business structures to maximize results is ongoing in the private sector. The Federal Government lacks such agility, so policymakers are constantly working to find ways to overcome these bureaucratic barriers to change. Overlap and duplication among government programs continues to grow. We are lucky that this Committee has helped lay the groundwork for substantial reorganization of the Executive Branch. You stole a lot of my thunder, Mr. Chairman, which is your prerogative. GAO's most recent report included 79 new actions across 29 new areas for Congress or Executive Branch agencies to reduce, eliminate, or better manage fragmentation, overlap, and duplication. Now, GAO is quick to point out that not every area in which there is overlap or duplication would benefit from a reorganization or restructuring. This Committee, among few in Congress with broad cross-government jurisdiction, can play an important role in pushing agencies just to improve their collaboration among overlapping and duplicative programs. Though GAO has done a great job highlighting areas of overlap and duplication, a robust, consistent inventory of government programs would help even more. If OMB is unwilling to untangle this important requirement, the Committee should consider asking an independent entity to do the work to produce the required inventory. The most recent, memorable reorganization, of course, was the establishment of the Department of Homeland Security. We are still working to get the benefits of integration we had hoped to gain when DHS was created. The intent was to improve coordination among disparate entities responsible for securing the homeland, then scattered across the government. If connecting the dots to anticipate threats was difficult before, it would be easier, presumably, if the entities were together under one cohesive organizational roof. Many reports highlight the difficulty achieving the vision of an effective homeland security enterprise even after consolidating these 22 different entities, and we can always do better. That is why when President Bush proposed the creation of the Department, he also sought permanent reorganization authority. We knew what was proposed would not always work most effectively, and the ability to reorganize the Department's agencies would strengthen the Nation's security. Trust is important in reorganizations, and trust is developed in government policy formulation by creating a transparent structure for communication and sharing of information with key stakeholders. This Committee knows well that up until the 1980s, as you said, Mr. Chairman, Congress granted the President reorganization authority, and since then, every President has sought it. Congress has not adequately trusted the President to grant it. We will need to overcome this level of mistrust to get very far on the reorganization path. So it is important to document some of the things we have learned from past reorganization efforts: It is crucial that we agree on the outcomes we are trying to achieve before embarking on a reorganization; Before announcing a reorganization proposal, engage in active collaboration with internal and external stakeholders; Do not expect savings early in a reorganization. Reorganizations are expensive; And enactment of a reorganization is just the beginning. As we have seen with DHS, the benefits of reorganization or restructuring come long after enactment. I would be remiss not to mention the recent recommendations of the Commission on Evidence-based Policymaking, of which I served as a member. We have been hard at work over the past year to develop practical recommendations you can act on to strengthen evidence-based practices across government. And among some of the recommendations we made, establishing a National Secure Data Service by bringing together existing statistical expertise now across government, improving privacy protections with better technology and greater coordination, and aligning capacity for statistics evaluation and policy research within and across departments. There is more detail in my testimony, but I am happy to answer more questions about that important work. The President's Executive Order on Government Reorganization presents us an enormous opportunity. Whether we take the opportunity depends in large part on the collaborative approach the Administration takes with its proposals and the willingness of this Committee to enact them. The benefits of reorganization will not be realized for years. It is my hope we will see the leadership and commitment necessary to make these long-overdue changes to our Federal Government. Thank you. Senator Lankford. Thank you. Ms. Greszler. TESTIMONY OF RACHEL GRESZLER,\1\ RESEARCH FELLOW IN ECONOMICS, BUDGETS, AND ENTITLEMENTS, HERITAGE FOUNDATION Ms. Greszler. Thank you for the opportunity to be here today. I would like to spend my time this morning focusing on three different things. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Greszler appears in the Appendix on page 40. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- So first is to provide a summary of some of the recommendations that we have made at the Heritage Foundation in our reorganization blueprints. Second is to look at some of the past reorganization efforts and their obstacles. And then third is to recommend what I see as the best pathway forward toward meaningful reform. So, first, in response to the President's Executive Order to reorganize the Federal Government, the Heritage Foundation researched and compiled two blueprint for reorganization documents.\2\ In doing so, we sought the advice and expertise of people with ``in the trenches'' Federal Government experience, and they provided invaluable insight to these documents here. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The documents referenced by Ms. Greszler appears in the Appendix on page 273. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our first analysis of Federal departments and agencies contains about 110 specific recommendations. Some of those include: eliminating the Federal Housing Administration and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB); transferring non- Federal functions such as police and fire protection and low- income housing assistance to State and local governments. We also recommend streamlining certain offices, such as many of the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA's) 42 different veterans services programs, consolidating them into one integrated service system to better serve those veterans. We also recommend moving the Food and Nutrition Services--a welfare program--from the Department of Agriculture to the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) and also transferring the student aid programs from Education to the Treasury Department. And, finally, we recommend eliminating programs that unjustly subsidize certain industries over others, such as the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the Export-Import Bank of the United States (Ex-Im) bank, and the energy loan programs. Without going into detail, our second report, ``Pathways to Reform and Cross-Cutting Issues,'' includes proposals for budget process reform, regulatory reform, restructuring financial regulators, reducing the Federal Government's footprint, and, most importantly, in my opinion, is transforming the Federal Government's personnel policies. Next, I would like to look at some of the past efforts in the obstacles to reorganization. Despite the fact that government reorganization has bipartisan support, it has always faced significant obstacles. Probably the most significant is the iron triangle made up of Federal agency administrators, interest groups served by those agencies, and then the Congressional committees that oversee them. For each of these groups, changes to or elimination of specific agencies or departments could result in the loss of government-protected jobs, special taxpayer-funded benefits and services, as well as power. For example, even when Congress created the new Department of Homeland Security, something that is a lot easier to do than eliminating a department, the outcome was an irrational structure. Although the Coast Guard and the Customs and Border Protection (CBP) agencies became part of the DHS, their jurisdiction remains within that of their previous committees that did not want to give up their oversight. So in recent history, both Presidents Clinton and Obama have embarked on well-intended reorganization efforts. The Clinton Administration's National Performance Review (NPR) was one of the most persistent reorganization efforts. It generated 1,200 proposals to improve government, and with the help of Congress, many of the NPR's recommendations were enacted, including the elimination of over 250 programs and agencies. Now, while the NPR was successful on many fronts, Clinton's deference to opposition from public sector unions prevented necessary and meaningful personnel reforms. President Obama also wanted to reorganize parts of the Federal Government, and he asked Congress for the executive authority to do so. He even stipulated that his plan would reduce the number of agencies and save taxpayers' dollars, and he proposed things that Republicans supported, like eliminating the Department of Commerce. Nevertheless, Republicans refused to grant him reorganization authority. Congress has also attempted reorganization. When Republicans took over Congress in 1995, they attempted to eliminate multiple agencies. The House spent months passing legislation through 11 committees to eliminate the Department of Commerce. But when it got to the Senate, a single Republican Senator blocked its passage. So I would like to wrap up by proposing what I see is the best pathway toward meaningful reform. I recommend a congressionally created and bipartisan reorganization commission consisting of independent experts with fast-track authority. This type of commission would avoid most of the pitfalls that have hampered previous efforts, and it would provide an insightful and necessarily independent review and set of recommendations. After receiving the commission's recommendations, both Congress and the President could have an opportunity to submit their suggested changes, and the commission would be able to accept or deny those. Although the obstacles to successful governmentwide reorganization are significant, both the consequences of failing to act and the benefits of establishing a more efficient, accountable, and right-sized Federal Government are too great to do nothing. Thank you. Senator Lankford. Thank you. Mr. Edwards. TESTIMONY OF CHRIS EDWARDS,\1\ DIRECTOR, TAX POLICY STUDIES, CATO INSTITUTE Mr. Edwards. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, thank you for inviting me to testify today on the OMB-led effort to improve Federal management and cut spending. As members know, Federal spending and deficits are soaring in coming years, and it is threatening a financial crisis down the road unless we make reforms. The OMB effort can help avert the risk of a Federal financial crisis in the future. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Edwards appears in the Appendix on page 51. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- OMB-led reforms can also tackle another problem, which is the bloated scope of Federal activities. The Federal Government today funds 2,300 different aid and benefit programs. That is twice as many as just as recently as the 1980s. All 2,300 Federal programs are susceptible to management and performance problems. The April OMB memo said that there is a ``growing citizen dissatisfaction with the cost and performance of the Federal Government.'' That is certainly true when you look at polling data. Here is the irony: As the size of the Federal Government has grown in recent decades and in theory is providing more services to citizens, trust in Federal competence has plunged, according to the polling data. So why is that happening? I think the Federal Government has grown far too large, frankly, to adequately manage and oversee all this vast array of programs that it runs. Consider this: The Federal budget of $4 trillion a year is 100 times larger than the average State budget in the United States of about $40 billion. So you folks oversee an empire essentially that is 100 times greater than the typical State legislator. So the OMB-led effort makes sense. The government would perform better with fewer failures if it were smaller. So work in Congress and agencies finds savings. The OMB memo discusses workforce reforms, and I think there are lots of reforms there we can make to save money. I think Federal pension benefits, for example, are excessive. I also think that there is a problem in disciplining poorly performing Federal workers. One statistic that has really struck me is that the firing rate for poorly performing Federal workers is only one- sixth as high as the firing rate in the United States private sector. So I think there is a real problem there. Another issue is the excess layers of Federal management. Academic research has found that American corporations have much flatter managements today than in the past, but research by Paul Light of Brookings has found that the number of management layers in a typical Federal agency today is twice as large as the 1960s. We are adding layers of middle management in the Federal Government. Light thinks that is a cause of increasing Federal failure. So we should focus on reducing Federal management layers. All that said, Federal spending on compensation and procurement is really only one-quarter of the entire Federal budget. Three-quarters of Federal spending is cash at the door and benefit programs for individuals and businesses and State governments. So how do we reform that spending? Two areas are of particular interest to me. One is reviving federalism. Rachel touched on this. The OMB memo suggests focusing Federal activities more where there is a ``unique Federal role'' and consider devolving other activities to State and local governments. The Federal Government funds more than 1,100 State aid programs. There are many problems with State aid programs, as I have written about extensively. I think they reduce State policy freedom, I think they breed bureaucracy, and I think they distract Federal policymakers, frankly, from focusing on truly national issues. The OMB memo says that agencies should do ``fundamental scoping'' of their activities, and I certainly agree, and I think we ought to look at State aid programs that the Federal Government ought to devolve to State and local governments. So a last point is that the OMB memo touched on the idea of comparing the costs of Federal programs to the benefits. Are the costs of particular programs justified by the benefits they produce to society? Well, cost-benefit analysis is a standard tool of economics that tries to judge the overall net value of programs. Since 1981, Federal agencies have been required to perform cost-benefit analysis for major regulatory actions. So we often see news stories about whether the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) cost-benefit analysis and, the results of those analyses show for regulations. There is no general requirement, however, to perform cost-benefit analysis on Federal spending programs. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) and the GAO do not generally do cost-benefit analysis. So supposing the Congress is considering spending $10 billion on an energy program. Does the program make any economic sense? Right now, we are flying blind. There is no overall analysis that would show. A cost-benefit analysis would look at whether the program's expected benefits were higher than the costs of the $10 billion in tax funding plus the additional damage caused, called ``deadweight losses'' of taxation. I think policymakers should require agencies to evaluate more programs with full cost-benefit analysis. There is disagreement about the results of such studies. They can be very complicated. But I think the whole cost- benefit analysis process is useful because it would require the government to at least try to quantify the merits of its policy actions. That is all I have, and thanks for holding these important hearings. Senator Lankford. Thank you very much, Mr. Edwards. Mr. Reardon. TESTIMONY OF ANTHONY M. REARDON,\1\ NATIONAL PRESIDENT, NATIONAL TREASURY EMPLOYEES UNION Mr. Reardon. Chairman Lankford, Ranking Member Heitkamp, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for allowing NTEU to share its thoughts on the Administration's plans to reorganize the Federal Government. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Reardon appears in the Appendix on page 60. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- NTEU is in favor of improving the efficiency and effectiveness of Federal agencies to ensure that they are providing the services that Americans rely upon and that taxpayer dollars are spent wisely. However, we are deeply concerned with the agencies being directed to make reductions in the workforce based only on proposed budgets that do not yet have congressional approval, which will drastically impact the ability of agencies to meet their missions. Additionally, it is our fear that staffing reductions are being proposed with the aim of outsourcing functions and services that, based on past experience, will only cost taxpayers more money and will provide the public with less transparency and accountability. It is important, however, that such reform efforts not take place in a vacuum. Rather, we believe that only by having senior officials working closely with front-line employees and their representatives will real positive reform take place. Federal employees are an essential source of ideas and information about the realities of delivering government services to the American people. Experience has shown that involving employees and their representatives in pre-decisional discussions concerning workplace matters results in better, higher-quality decisionmaking, more support for those decisions, and more timely implementation. It is in this vein that I reached out to and met with then- OMB Senior Advisor Linda Springer to discuss our desire to be part of the reorganization planning. I also asked our chapters to provide ideas that I could share with agency heads. I am pleased to say that the response from our members was overwhelming. After collecting these ideas, I wrote letters to agencies and offered to meet to discuss these suggestions. The recommendations provided were generally as follows: To increase telework and/or hoteling to reduce real estate costs and increase employee productivity; To consolidate management layers, because we continue to see top-heavy management organizations with higher-than-need-be supervisor-to-employee ratios; To hire more support staff so that employees with more complex work could spend less time performing administrative functions; To empower front-line decisionmaking in order for agencies to breed individual and group confidence, enabling people to work both more efficiently and more effectively; And, finally, to fill existing vacancies so that agencies can meet their missions. One of the major concerns NTEU has with the reorganization effort is its call for increased outsourcing of government functions. NTEU has long maintained that Federal employees, given the appropriate tools and resources, do the work of the Federal Government better and more efficiently than any private entity. When agencies become so reliant on Federal contractors, the in-house capacity of agencies to perform many critical functions is eroded, jeopardizing their ability to accomplish their missions. NTEU has witnessed prior efforts to improve government services fail. We have seen overly ambitious efforts to reform the civil service that eroded employee rights and morale, as well as haphazard efforts to reduce the number of Federal workers by cutting an arbitrary number of personnel, implementing a hiring freeze, or failing to replace departing employees. In fact, one of the biggest failures of the Clinton-Gore Administration's so-called Reinventing Government initiative was the hollowing out of agencies, leaving them unable to conduct proper workforce planning, and without a skilled workforce in place. Finally, it should be noted that the Federal Government's current inability to carry out its basic functions without threats of a default or shutdown undermines any confidence that massive reform efforts can be successfully achieved. Thank you again for the opportunity to share my views with you today, and I am happy to answer any questions. Senator Lankford. Thank you all for your testimony. This conversation will be a conversation. I am going to make a couple of questions here, pass it to Ranking Member Heitkamp, to do some questions, and then we will just have an open dialogue, and we will go back and forth. So I would like for this to be a dialogue not only among the four of you, but with us, and then we will be able to keep that moving, because this is exceptionally important that we get some context areas. So from my perspective, the things that I want to be able to gain from today is not only a set of ideas that you have already presented, the things to be able to notice and to be able to watch for in a reorganization, but obviously, we are going to work with the legislative issues, not only executive authority and releasing that to the Executive Branch of what authorities they have to be able to accomplish that, but actually putting into legislative action whatever has to be put into structure. All of these agencies were created by Congress. All of the structures were created by Congress. Congress should still be involved in the engagement of how the oversight is done. So there are often executive agencies where the Executive Branch is given the responsibility to run it, they were created by Congress. The parameters that were done for them were created by Congress, that is, the American people were speaking into it. So there is still a responsibility to be able to engage in that issue. So ideas and insight that you may have in structure and format are exceptionally helpful to us in that. Mr. Reardon, I want to be able to make a couple comments to you, and I appreciate your comments and your list on it. It is very interesting to me, because very often I will visit with our front-line employees, as you mentioned as well. And I have the habit of when I go into agencies in Oklahoma to not just meet with the people that I am assigned to meet with, but to get past that and to get to cubicle world and get a chance to visit with many of our great employees that are in cubicles. This is a comment I heard from the last place that I visited, and I will leave the places and people out on it because I have not asked them specifically to mention it publicly. I remember walking into a place, and when I am walking through just meeting people on it, I had a Federal employee that came and caught me, introduced themselves, and said, ``We have a lot of work to be able to do. There are a lot of things we are doing we should not do. There are a lot of things that we are doing that are wasteful, that I know I am filling out papers that no one is reading. I want to do purposeful work. That is why I came.'' And there were just a million things that she had on her mind. I put that in context with a previous place that I had gone to, when I am walking around through the cubicles, and I walked up to a lady that was in one of the spots, and I said, ``Tell me what you do.'' She looked up from her desk and smiled at me, and she said, ``I do what we should not do. I love my job. I love the people I work with. But the tasks that I do the Federal Government should not do at all. But I do it every day.'' I want to make sure their opinions are being heard, because they have ideas. They know the loss that is happening and where they are spinning their wheels and not accomplishing things. How can we pull those opinions out and get them to a larger voice? And is it your perception at this point that OMB is hearing from those individuals who have those practical ideas? Mr. Reardon. Mr. Chairman, I very much appreciate your question, and I, too, agree that front-line employees need to be heard from. And I do not believe that at the present time that is occurring effectively. I believe that, without question, agency management and front-line employees must engage, work together, and figure out some of those things that you are talking about. Where paperwork is unnecessary or duplicative, or they are doing work that, as the young lady mentioned, they should not be doing, I totally agree. That all has to be worked out, and those changes must be made. But one of the things that I am concerned about is that front-line employees are not really being heard. I can tell you that I have those same conversations. In fact, I recently had a conversation with some Internal Revenue Service (IRS) employees from Oklahoma, and---- Senator Lankford. Great folks, by the way. Mr. Reardon. They are great folks, along with--we have many CBP employees, Office of Field Operations employees in Oklahoma as well. Senator Lankford. Which, by the way, while you are mentioning that, some of them are in an office complex that they should not be in, and we are in the process of trying to get them out of that space because their space is the problem. Mr. Reardon. The IRS folks? Senator Lankford. Yes. Mr. Reardon. I am in 100 percent agreement. That, in fact, is why I was speaking to them yesterday in Tulsa. Thank you. Senator Lankford. Yes. Mr. Reardon. So I believe that many of our Federal employees, certainly those in the 31 agencies where we represent folks, they do not feel that they are being listened to. They do not feel as though they have a voice. And I think one of the important elements that we bring is that, as I said, we represent employees in 31 agencies, so we have a very interesting perspective. We know what is going on in all those agencies. And so where our front-line employees in a particular agency would be involved in some reforms, we would be able to deliver some best practices that are occurring in different agencies and bring them to the debate. But I do not believe that is happening. Senator Lankford. Well, OMB has promised us that they are in the process of that. The four agencies that we visited with, one of the questions that Senator Heitkamp and I had for them specifically when they came is: How are the Federal employees that work in these agencies, how are they contributing to the ideas? They talked through how they are doing it, through online, through emails, how they are reporting that back up, how they are receiving it, the thousands of comments they are receiving. So it is our hope that not only are they being heard, but that OMB will actually apply some of those things, because there are some very practical, specific reforms that can be done if those individuals are heard. Mr. Reardon. Can I offer one other thing? Senator Lankford. Sure. Mr. Reardon. One of the models that I think is really outstanding is, for example, in the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). They have these workforce excellence committees that bring together front-line employees as well as management groups. And I will tell you, I have seen it firsthand and Chairman Marty Gruenberg and I see this firsthand: that these front-line employees and these managers get in these committees, and they operate not as labor and management. They operate as FDIC employees, and they tackle really important issues within the FDIC, bringing about efficiencies, doing work that says how should we do things to make it better for our operation, for the banks, so on and so forth. That for me is a real model and something that we should be looking across government to emulate. Senator Lankford. Senator Heitkamp. Senator Heitkamp. I think there are two steps to this process, and the first step is the low-hanging fruit, where we could all sit down, across the ideological spectrum, and say, ``This is crazy. Why are we doing it this way? Why can we not be more efficient in what we do? Why do we have to have three agencies that do exactly the same function that are just in the business of turf protecting when we have so much other important work to do?'' And so, there is enough work to do in this country. We do not need to make work. And I think we can all agree that that is the baseline. Another really interesting kind of parallel here is this agreement that we are management heavy, that we have too many layers of management. It probably creates little fiefdoms. It probably creates more competition for protection of that function than what it should. And so I want to explore the management structure and what you perceive, I think, Mr. Reardon, because you are probably closest to what is happening with reorganization right now. Is this an issue that is being tackled by any of these agencies that are now looking at government efficiency? Mr. Reardon. Thank you, Ranking Member Heitkamp. I am close to this, and from what I have seen in my experience, agencies are not tackling it effectively enough. If, for example, you look at CBP, right now in CBP there is something on the order of one supervisor for every 5.7 employees. In 2003, I believe it was, that number was one supervisor for every 12 employees. Now, I ask you to couple that with the fact that across CBP, we are short something on the order of 4,000 CBP officers and 631 agriculture specialists. And it is important to recognize what these folks do. Not only do they help protect our country through the ports of entry (POE), but they also protect us, insofar as the agriculture specialist, making sure that pests do not come in and ruin our crops and so forth. And so there is also an economic element to this because they help move people, tourists, as well as freight into and out of our country. So it is important to make certain that we have the staffing that we need for these agencies such as CBP. Senator Heitkamp. I just want to kind of add to my frustration about what happens to Border Patrol and agents who are front line. When we had the surge at the border of unaccompanied minors, they carry a gun, but they were changing diapers. That makes no sense. Mr. Reardon. Right. Senator Heitkamp. That is not the function that they signed up for, and it creates morale problems, and it creates real challenges for those Border Patrol agents. So getting them back on patrol should be our top priority. But if you take a look at reorganization coming from Congress, probably the worst example, in my opinion, is the Department of Homeland Security. Why is that? Because as Ms. Greszler said, there was no oversight. There is no consistent oversight from Congress. We shoved all these agencies together, said, ``Good luck.'' We bring them in and we beat them because, your morale is poor, you are not functioning the way you want to function. But we take no responsibility on this side of the dais for the challenges that we have created with no commitment to overall oversight. And I think you see that repeatedly. And what I would like to just reiterate, this Subcommittee, is incredibly committed to actually creating an oversight system of the work that is being done right now, whether it is in the planning or whether it is in the implementation of this oversight. We cannot just have this oversight, this new reorganization, been there, done that, now we all can take a bow when we go out to talk to the cameras, and then behind it is chaos. We need to take responsibility here for what we are not getting done, and I think the Department of Homeland Security is a critical component. Mr. Edwards, you raised this question of the tiered management system. How pervasive, when you do the judgment--you just heard Mr. Reardon say, 1:6, 1:12. When you think about benchmarks for management to front-line workers, what do you think that ratio--let us assume you agree that these are all functions we should be performing in the Federal Government. What do you think that ratio should be? Mr. Edwards. I do not know what it should be precisely. I mean, there is a whole academic literature on span of control and the like. Senator Heitkamp. Right. Mr. Edwards. But there is academic research that I have looked at major U.S. corporations. They are flattered that their spans of control have increased. Senator Heitkamp. Can you give the numbers you gave in your testimony again? You said the United States Government---- Mr. Edwards. So Paul Light of Brookings has found that the number of layers in the typical Federal agency has doubled since the 1960s, and he has done this interesting analysis looking at titles of Federal employees, and there are far more employees today than in the past that have long, fancy titles like Assistant Deputy, da, da, da, rather than front-line folks. One of the points he makes is that--and we saw this after Hurricane Katrina, which I read quite a bit about and looked at the official reports on. There is no doubt in my mind that one of the chief screw-ups, Federal screw-ups after Hurricane Katrina was that the Department of Homeland Security was new, there were so many different layers, that the communication became very difficult. And there was this huge complexity of decisionmaking. No one knew who was responsible for what. So I think communication flows more quickly when you have fewer layers of management. I think rules and regulations are easier because everyone knows who is responsible. Senator Heitkamp. I just want to tell kind of a personal story before we hear from Mr. Shea. I once was a Federal attorney, and every time I wrote a letter, I had a routing slip, and it had to be signed off by four levels. And, of course, you have to justify your existence, so you send it back with changes. And by the time the top guy changes what you just did, the bottom guy does not like it. And so you can imagine the lack of number one efficiency, but accountability, at the end who was really accountable for that letter? There was no one accountable for that letter. And when I went to State government as an attorney, I went into my supervisor, and I said, ``Can I have the routing slip?'' And he said, ``The what?'' I said, ``The routing slip where I have to get approval to send this letter out.'' And, I am 25 years old or 26 years old, and he looked at me and goes, ``Well, did you research that letter?'' I said, ``Yes.'' ``You think you said the right thing in that letter?'' I said, ``Well, yes, I worked pretty hard on it.'' He goes, ``Then sign it and send it.'' And you know what? The message to me was, look, you are accountable. And when you add those layers of supervision, you eliminate accountability for the work that is being done, and I think it creates an attitude that maybe I do not have to take responsibility for this because it is going to be the guy at the top. Mr. Shea, you wanted to comment before I turn it back over to Senator Lankford. Mr. Shea. You just reminded me of my first days at OMB when every memo or circular had to be signed off on in physical hard copy, and you had some documents literally as high as the dais that some bloke had to carry around from office to office to get signed. Luckily, we have gone electronic. I am sure they are giving it the same diligent review they did then. I think it is important to note--and Rachel said this in her testimony--that if we do not tackle fundamental personnel reform in conjunction with reorganizations, you will not get the benefits that you hope. Agencies cannot recruit and retain the workforce they need to accomplish their missions. It is the chief challenge we find when we survey chief human capital officers (CHCO), chief financial officers (CFO), chief information officers (CIO). So unless agencies have the flexibility to mold the workforces they need to accomplish the mission you hope they will accomplish when you reorganize them, you will not get there. Senator Heitkamp. But I do want to make this point, that we have created an atmosphere where a mistake could be catastrophic. So people are afraid of making mistakes, and that creates paralysis. We have to have a level of tolerance for things not always being perfect. And I think when you look at management structures, if you want a zero mistake tolerance standard, you will get nothing done. I had a Governor who had a sign on the wall that said, ``If you made no mistakes today, you really did not get anything done.'' Mr. Shea. You are talking about the culture of an organization. Senator Heitkamp. Right. Mr. Shea. And leadership can overcome structural barriers to creating that culture in organizations with sustained leadership. We get to manage in an environment where senior leadership turns over sometimes as frequently as every 18 months. So you can play an important role in making sure there is a sustained attention to whatever culture it is you want to see in an organization, including one that is risk tolerant. Senator Lankford. So how much common ground do we have on personnel policies? Let me just talk hiring for a moment. If I remember the number correctly, because we have done a lot of studies on this, off the top of my head I think it is 120 different hiring authorities that are out there. No one can keep track of 120 different hiring authorities, and it has reached a point that those 120 different hiring authorities, every agency contacts us and says, ``We want direct hire authority.'' In other words, ``We want to do none of the above.'' How do we fix that? Let us just start with that, because going back to your Customs and Border Patrol Statement, we had some of the folks here after the President made the announcement we need to hire--you said 4,000, he said 5,000 additional people that need to be there. Our response was, ``Good luck.'' Right now, Customs and Border Patrol, it takes 450 days to hire one person. It is one of the worst areas we have in government for hiring people and the length of time it takes to hire somebody. How do we solve that? Mr. Shea. So we do not have a lot of common ground. I broke my pick on trying to get a lot of personnel flexibilities in place across government. You could rewrite personnel rules in such a way that made it much easier to hire people, to retain people. But if you ask--and veterans' preference is a major barrier, both to hiring people and to hiring veterans. So it is a major stumbling block in improvement to the Federal hiring-- -- Senator Lankford. By the way, privately, agencies will tell us that. Mr. Shea. But if you ask Gene Dodaro and if you find agencies that have been able to figure this out, leadership commitment can overcome a lot of existing barriers. So if people make it a priority--frankly, not a sexy agenda item for many political appointees, but if you make it a priority, you can really improve things. Senator Lankford. OK. Any other comment on that from anyone? Because I want to be able to move on. We have a million topics to be able to go through as well. All right. So let me ask a process question. Ms. Greszler, one of the things that you focused in on in your report--and thank you for pulling all those things together--are the practical aspects and the process things. Today is more process-oriented for us because we are trying to work through the specifics. Obviously, the Administration is going to make their proposal on the specific things in it. About 6 years ago, I am a young Congressman, and I saw a major issue in the Department of Transportation (DOT) where they were overreaching and really doing something that States should do, not the Federal Government at all. So I had this great idea and put a bill together and got cosponsors and dropped the bill. We started building momentum on it to be able to put it onto a highway bill. And I have an appointment show up on my calendar from someone from the U.S. Department of Transportation, and they wanted to come in and visit with me on the importance of this program. And I described where I was on it, and they said where they were on it. We were going back and forth, and it was very polite. And I said, ``I do not understand, because the States all do this already. Why do we have to have this additional layer on the Federal level when every State already does this? Is there any State that is not doing it well?'' And he said, ``No. Every State is doing it well.'' I said, ``Then why do we have to do this?'' And his exact response to me was, ``I have people that do that every day.'' And I thought that is not the answer I was looking for. I was looking for safety, soundness, some essential thing. He was, like, ``No, I have people for that, so we need to do that.'' I fought my way through that bill and lost, because many in my party and others all said, ``No, we need to keep doing that because we have people for that.'' One of the things that you tried to identify in your report was the challenge of process trying to move things. You proposed this commission to do it, and Congress has a love-hate relationship with creating commissions to be able to do things. But I would be very interested in process things. When there is an idea that enough of us can look at and say, ``Yes, that is an idea we need to seriously take on,'' what would you suggest based on studying this has been an effective mode for actually moving the idea into reality? Ms. Greszler. I think so many times when there is an idea, even if there is a lot of support for that idea, it ends up getting tied up in that committee process, because ultimately you are going to have somebody that comes in, somebody is going to lose a job. Even if it is a function that everybody agrees does not need to be performed, there is somebody doing it. And that is a loss for them, and they are going to argue a lot harder than the rest of Americans or the other committees. And so I just see it as so difficult to get little things through Congress. Even last week the House voted some of the proposals we include in here, just eliminating or reducing some of the funding for things like essential air services that provide up to $200 subsidies for these flights in the middle of nowhere or Amtrak funding, and, overwhelmingly, that amendment was voted down. And so things that make sense and that the Federal Government should not be doing are so difficult to get through Congress. And that is why ultimately I think, going forward, if we want to see a big governmentwide reorganization, you kind of have to step back. I mean, one thing to do would be to put it in the hands of committees like your own that have broad jurisdiction, government oversight as opposed to the more particular ones that would be more inclined to protect their turf. But even that I think you would face some significant obstacles, and so that is why I think if you have an independent commission, it is bipartisan, both sides can elect people from previous Administrations to look at the idea, I think there is a broad set of ideas available that everybody largely agrees on. But you put them in one package, and then it is about reform. It is not about 5 jobs or 10 jobs there. It is about making the government as a whole work better for the people, and I think that is when you can have some people swallow a little bit of a loss in one area or another. Senator Heitkamp. I would resist a little bit what you are saying, Rachel, because I am a huge proponent of the Ex-Im Bank. You mentioned the Ex-Im Bank in your testimony. I do not think that is a waste of manpower. I think it is a critical piece of our trade infrastructure. I am frustrated because we reauthorized the Ex-Im Bank by almost a 60-percent majority here, making a statement, hearing all of the arguments, and it was a tough fight, and we still do not have a fully functioning bank, because on the outside we have challenges coming from a number of the groups that are represented here. I get it. And so, there comes a time when you have to say, look, we lost that fight. Let us focus on the things that we can agree on. Let us focus on duplicative programs. Let us focus on not the ideological programs. Maybe those come later. But we do not have a big discussion in this country very often about where are the boundaries. I will give you a for instance. We had a Banking Committee where we talked about bitcoins, and everybody was talking about how they are going to regulate bitcoins. They got to me, and I said, ``Stop it. It is buyer beware.'' You want to deal in bitcoins and you lose your life savings, that is not on me. But the minute the government touches it, it says it is OK, we are regulating it, therefore, you can now have some sense of security around using this currency. So I think we do not have those foundational arguments, and those foundational arguments, when we get into it, distract from where the soft spot is, where we can all agree across ideological barriers. And so I would say that instead of fighting the fights about whether we are going to have a Consumer Financial Protection Bureau or an Ex-Im Bank, let us talk about how we can reduce the frustration of front-line employees in performing these functions, how we can identify what Senator Lankford just talked about, places where we do not need these folks to be doing what they are doing. We have a lot of other things they could be doing. And why does anyone want to spend their life doing something that does not add value to the American public? They do not. These employees do not. And so, I think that one of the things that we could do is lower the ideological barriers and really get to that efficiency measurement that we could all agree on. And when you are talking about cost-benefit analysis, I mean, there is a lot of discussion here. I am all for that. You know who should be performing cost-benefit analysis on existing Federal expenditures? The Appropriations Committee, the oversight committees that authorize these programs. And we should have a greater sense of skepticism about the program. We should be a much more critical reviewer of these programs regardless of our ideology. And so I would say that we could really do some great work here if we just agreed that the hard-line, hard-fought ideological battles about various agencies got set aside and we could work on the low-hanging fruit, build trust, build relationships, and then continue the discussion. Ms. Greszler. I do think you could structure a commission. You could give it a narrow window: These are things that you are going to address, and these are things that are off limits. But I would worry a little because there are so many of the issues that are ideological. I see Federal personnel and compensation reform as crucial to this. No matter how many agencies you eliminate or reorganizations or duplications you get rid of, if you do not change the personnel structure, the way that we hire and fire employees, the way that we compensate them, I mean the government cannot attract and retain the best and brightest employees that they want to right now, and it cannot get rid of the ones that it needs to. And that is something that, even if you have the perfect structure and you are only performing the functions you should, you still need the appropriate personnel organization and way to go about that. And so I think that, yes, you can limit the functions of a commission or whatever reorganization plan it is, but there are always going to be some partisan issues in there. Senator Heitkamp. Mr. Reardon. Mr. Reardon. I think it is important to recognize that a lot of these workload and personnel issues really come down to a need of process improvements, not really an overhaul of laws. We can hire people, we can pay them, but the fact is that it has to be funded. And, when I talk to my members, what I hear from them are things like, they do not have the resources that they need to do their jobs. I think I have mentioned this before, and it still is stunning to me, that, for example, in the IRS there are people, many people--all over the country-- that do not have office supplies to do their jobs. So, funding to have the tools and the resources to do the job is important. I would also mention to you training dollars. Not only training dollars for front-line employees so that they have the knowledge to do the work--times are changing, and people need to be trained to move along with those times, but also training for managers. Managers have a lot of the tools at their disposal right now to deal with problem employees. But the fact of the matter is they are not sufficiently trained to do that work. And, ultimately a lot of this, candidly, comes down to staffing. I mentioned CBP. IRS, for example, since 2010 has lost on the order of 20,000 employees, 20 percent of its workforce. And that is obviously the organization that brings in 93 percent of our country's revenue. Something is wrong there. Senator Heitkamp. I think Mr. Shea had a comment. Senator Lankford. Mr. Shea, were you going to comment on that? And then I want to add a question if you---- Mr. Shea. Sure. I just want to endorse Rachel's idea. A similar bill we proposed during the Bush Administration to create a commission that would produce recommendations and go to Congress for an up-or-down vote, and you could narrow the scope of that commission in such a way, and that is based on the success of the Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC) Commissions, which were specifically designed to overcome potential road blocks that they would face in the Congress. On the cost-benefit analysis, I mentioned in my testimony the Commission on Evidence-based Policymaking. The government is investing more and more to rigorously evaluate its programs. They generally are found not to be effective, but it is really hard, expensive, and takes a long time to do these evaluations. It is our hope that if the recommendations of the Commission are implemented, it will be easier to get that data so that you can find the few diamonds in the rough that are actually having an impact and at what cost so that you can compare the cost- effectiveness of programs across government. Senator Lankford. OK. So, interestingly enough on that, I posted on my Facebook page, which I do at times, the topic of this hearing and just ask folks that are on it any of their ideas and thoughts on it. Lucy Perez of Oklahoma City posted this question: ``Why do we not consolidate agencies and Federal departments that perform similar duties?'' And I think it was an honest question. Why do we not do that? When I talk to anyone who has ever been with OMB, they see the issues and say this function is done loosely by four different entities. Now, all of them will have a little slight variation on it, but four different entities basically do the same thing on it. The American people, definitely the people in Oklahoma see it; people all over the country see it. We have a bill called ``The Taxpayers Right-to-Know'' that passed unanimously in the House and over here is being held up by, I think, five of my colleagues that do not want to do it. But it basically forces a list of all of the things the Federal Government does just so we can set them side by side and Congress can evaluate just for transparency's sake what are all the things that we do, where are they. We cannot even get that list at this point. So the question is: Help me and help her hear this answer. What is the issue of why, as it is called, cross-cutting, where you are looking at different agencies, an agency's silo can evaluate it, but dealing with duplication in multiple agencies becomes harder? And how do we get through that? Mr. Shea. It is kind of a philosophical question. I think, once a government institution is created, its ecosystem develops around it. It has offices in OMB that are responsible for overseeing its management and budgeting. It has oversight committees in Congress. It has contractors--not like Grant Thornton, of course, but other contractors who have an interest in doing business with that organization, so those tentacles make it really difficult to reform those organizations. Everybody, I think, has good intent. They want the mission to succeed. But they become too aligned to the status quo to want to move to something different. There is an enormous fear about what will result afterwards. Who will lose? Someone will have to lose. I do not think that necessarily has to be the case, but that is the fear. Mr. Edwards. Can I make a quick comment? Senator Lankford. Mr. Edwards. Mr. Edwards. Sort of maybe obvious points, but, if you have two $1 billion programs in different agencies that essentially do the same thing, the GAO would say that they are overlapping, etc. Maybe they are under the auspices of different congressional committees. The folks who protect both programs, of course, in Congress would want to defend them both. And if you combine them to eliminate duplication, people would argue, well, we should spend $2 billion on the total because they were each $1 billion programs. So there is an issue saving money. On the bigger sort of philosophical questions, Robert said--I have a stat in my testimony that in the private sector, there is just this automatic renewal that happens. As we all know, bankruptcy in the private sector in America is absolutely enormous. There is a pretty standard statistic that 10 percent of all U.S. businesses go out of business every year, either through bankruptcy or something else. If the demand for a product falls, if the costs go too high, it just disappears in the private sector. And the government, unfortunately, it is very difficult to shift resources. They get sort of stuck where they get originally put. Senator Heitkamp. I think if you go back and take a look, let us talk about supervision. I have a bill that has been supported by a lot of folks on supervision. We are going to reintroduce it this Congress, because I agree with you, I think--people used to tell me in State government, when I ran agencies, that you could not fire people in State government. I said, ``That is news to me because I fired a lot of people who were not functioning.'' I mean, there is a process. And I think that we sometimes hide behind that process to avoid that confrontation. And I think front-line workers who tend to get promoted, if they are good at what they do, may not be the best supervisors. And we need to move that along. But when you look at duplication, we are going through this whole exercise. We do not need all of this review to know that there is duplication. We have had GAO come in here incredibly frustrated because they say the same things over and over again, the same report over and over again, and nothing happens. And why is that? Because we do not do appropriate oversight here. There are no cameras that are going to come in here--if we were having a Committee hearing on Equifax, we would have tons of people waiting outside that door. It is the issue du jour, it is the topic du jour that sucks the oxygen out of the room in Congress when we should be doing the yeoman's like work on this side of the dais to improve the quality and competence of the Federal Government building, again, the commitment that the American public has and the sense that they have that we are doing the right thing. It is not a sexy thing. I think what we are doing here is not sexy. But we are committed to doing it the right way and making sure that we have some results that we can build on when we build on the trust. And so, Mr. Reardon, you wanted to comment? Mr. Reardon. Yes, one of the other things that I would add that I think that we all kind of run into is this notion that the Federal Government is somehow bad, that Federal employees are somehow bad, they are swamp creatures, they are in the swamp. Senator Lankford. They are right now because of hurricane relief. Mr. Reardon. Well, that is exactly true. You are exactly right about that. They are some of our greatest first responders, without question. So I think the political rhetoric--and it has been around for decades, but it has really taken hold to the point where I have a lot of meetings with our members, and I routinely have people say to me, ``Why does Congress feel this way about us?'' And they just cannot get their minds around why so many in Congress, based on some of the public statements that are made in the media or maybe by some in OMB, why people feel so negative about them. And so our Federal employees, in large measure, do not feel valued. There has been a lot of talk here about trust. Federal employees do not really feel as though they trust management either. So there are some things that I think we really need to pay attention to in our current system, and the trust between the front lines and management I think is certainly one of those things. And I would add that, when we talk about first responders and we talk about CBP officers from San Francisco and around the country going to help in Hurricane Harvey or Hurricane Irma, I would also like to point out that the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) brings people in to answer phones, and one of the groups that they brought in were a number of employees from the IRS. And the IRS did really a great job of providing people so that they could help. So there are all kinds of Federal employees who are not only pulling people out of floods but that do a lot of different kinds of important work. And so I hope the day comes where we value the whole Federal workforce. Senator Lankford. I think trust builds trust, and when so many Federal employees also share with their family and relatives how frustrated they are--because they are and they are stuck in a bureaucracy. They see things that need to change. They see someone sitting next to them that they cannot figure out why that person is not working hard and I am working really hard, that just continues to build this conversation that happens, that people know some of those issues and want to be able to work through the process. So Members of Congress beating up people they have never met is not appropriate. But the real issues that we need to address is the effectiveness of what we are doing, the bureaucracy of what is happening, when we are slowing down our economy waiting on multiple layers. All those things need to be addressed. My question to this group is--and we need to wrap up, and I want to honor your time as well. OMB is in a process right now, and part of the reason that we want to be able to have this conversation and that we look forward to having the conversation with OMB sitting at that same table to talk through how they are handling it and what they are doing is counsel OMB to make sure you do not miss this, and to Congress for this to have lasting change, you have to do this. So what I would be interested in is very specific counsel beyond what you have in your written statements, because your written documents are all in, or if you want to reinforce something you have written, counsel to OMB that now that they are looking at the things that are coming in from all the agencies, they have to help determine those cross-cutting, because at the end of the day we have asked OMB to be the one that has the big picture and the White House to have the big picture to say bring us a set of recommendations where you see recommendations. I will keep working on Taxpayers Right-to-Know where we can force those same things out so every entity, every think tank, every American, all Members of Congress can also see all of the duplication, and we can have a national conversation on it. But until that time we get all that, OMB has it, counsel you would have for OMB as they are handling this and then counsel you would have for Congress as we try to walk through and codify the issues that are needed. And I would be interested from any of you or all of you on that. Mr. Shea, you have uniquely got the ball, being in that chair before. Mr. Shea. So make sure they know what outcome they are trying to accomplish and whether what they are proposing is going to accomplish it better than we are doing it today. Implement the recommendations of the Commission on Evidence- based Policymaking so you can actually evaluate whether or not what we are doing is accomplishing the intended goal. And for Congress and this Committee in particular, you have to commit to sustained oversight of the reorganization to ensure that we adjust in real time to make sure we actually get to where we are trying to go. Senator Lankford. Can I ask a quick question on that? Then I want to move on. For OMB, is it important that they say what they are going to do before they ask for executive authority to do it? Because that has been some of the challenge as well. As you mentioned before, many times Congress will not give the executive authority because there is an uncertainty of what is going to happen. Mr. Shea. So it is really difficult for me to imagine Congress granting the President reorganization authority at this time in our history. But perhaps they could enact it for a future Administration. Senator Lankford. If this Administration were to take it on, obviously they are pulling the things together on it. What do they need to list out specifically to say here is what we want to do, give us authority to do this? Mr. Shea. You mean broadly speaking or with each individual---- Senator Lankford. Broadly speaking. Mr. Shea. I think, as Rachel suggested and we proposed during the Bush Administration, an independent commission to make recommendations that get an up-or-down vote in the Congress. It can be very narrowly tailored to reducing overlap and duplication among programs or agencies. Senator Lankford. OK. All right. Thank you. Ms. Greszler. Ms. Greszler. And I will just pick up on that. I think that if they were required to submit detailed--like a list by list, this is exactly what we want to do, there is not much chance of Congress granting executive authority. To OMB, I would say two things. First, just the process in which they are taking in, they have received over 100,000 recommendations, and so I do not know what they have in place over there, but something that would categorize them and, where do we have 1,000 people that are saying do the same thing and kind of to break it out and here are our broad goals, here are some more specific things. Where do we have a lot of agreement? And then also considering making some of those available to Congress and to the public and just say these were submitted by public institutions, here is what they are saying. To Congress, I think it is a big thing on the process, and so if Congress is going to have to take on some of this, whether it comes from the President and hear his proposals-- there is going to be something in there that needs congressional action. I would say the best way to go about that is through oversight in the Governmental Affairs Committees because you have the broader jurisdiction; otherwise, I think everything is just going to get so tied up in the process that you will not see much come out of it. Senator Lankford. OK. Thank you. Mr. Edwards. Mr. Edwards. Robert mentioned the Commission report last week, the Murray-Ryan Commission on Evidence-based Policymaking, which I went through, and it is very good, although it mainly focuses on generating more data. I do not think that is what we need. I think we need more evaluations, and as I said in my testimony, I think it is a cost-benefit analysis which is a standard tool of economics. Some Federal agencies, like DOT, the Army Corps, already do detailed cost- benefit analysis. We know how to do this. I think that is where we ought to put resources. Looking around on the Internet in the last few days, the State of Washington has this fantastic website. You go to it; it has all--I do not know whether it is all, but many of their major agencies and programs. They have the full cost-benefit analysis results right there. This program costs the average taxpayer $100; the benefits are $150; it makes sense. That is, I think, what we need, and to inform the public about these programs. Senator Heitkamp and Rachel had strongly held views about the Ex-Im Bank, both, I am sure, very knowledgeable viewpoints. But, we needed hard data in that debate. We needed the CBO or someone to do the evaluation with a bottom-line number, and then we can debate over what the numbers are. So I think we need to quantify the benefits of these programs. Senator Lankford. OK. Thank you. Mr. Reardon. Mr. Reardon. OK. Thank you. The first thing that I would suggest is that OMB instruct agencies to work with us on the recommendations that we provided those agencies, and they were contained in my testimony, so I will not go through all of those again. To Congress, I would suggest that Congress fund agencies appropriately, first thing. The second thing is to enact Senator Heitkamp's forthcoming supervisor training bill that you had put forward last year. Finally, I would say it is important to involve front-line employees and their representatives in whatever work is being done so that, without question, front-line employee perspectives are included and taken very seriously. Senator Lankford. OK. Senator Heitkamp. We received some great comments from the Partnership for Public Service, and so I want to ask unanimous consent to enter that testimony into the record.\1\ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The statement from the Partnership for Public Service appears in the Appendix on page 374. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Senator Lankford. Without objection. Senator Heitkamp. Thank you. I have no further questions. Senator Lankford. OK. Thank you for the work leading up to this. You did tremendous work in your written testimonies, and I appreciate that very much. I appreciate the ongoing dialogue as you have specific recommendations or ideas. Please continue to be able to bring those. This Committee is very committed not only just to the philosophical argument but to actually the practical implementation of what those things will really mean. Many of the things that you brought up demand really an hour- long conversation on each of those issues alone. We are actually just skimming the surface today. But I appreciate the ongoing dialogue both with our staff and with us as members as well. Before we adjourn, I do want to announce that next month the Subcommittee will hold a hearing to examine how various State legislatures review administrative rules and how they interact with State regulators. That concludes today's hearing. Again, I want to thank our witnesses for this. The hearing record will remain open for 15 days until the close of business on September 28th, my wife's birthday, for the submission of statements and questions for the record. This hearing is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 11:19 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X ---------- [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]