[Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: George W. Bush (2008, Book I)]
[January 2, 2008]
[Pages 1-9]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office www.gpo.gov]
Interview With Nahum Barnea and Shimon
Shiffer of Yedioth Ahronoth
January 2, 2008
President's Upcoming Visit to Israel/Former Prime Minister Ariel
Sharon of Israel
Q. First of all, we would like to thank you very much for your
readiness to see us and to have this interview for us. We can assure you
that in Israel, you can be elected for the third term--[laughter]--with
one exception: The day after the first day in office, the media will
kill you. [Laughter] This is Israel. But you have so many, really,
admirers in Israel.
The President. Well, thank you. I'm really looking forward to going
again. As you know, this is my first trip as the President. I had the
honor----
Q. I saw you. I had the opportunity to shake your hand in the
Knesset.
The President. I was thrilled to go in 1998. One of the great
ironies of my first trip to Israel was that, as well documented, I was
given a tour of the West Bank by Ariel Sharon. Little did we both
realize then that we would be sitting together in the hopes of
constructing peace, that we knew we'd be--we didn't know that we'd be
President and Prime Minister at the time.
Q. And yet he was the leader of the opposition at the time.
The President. Well, he was in the Cabinet. He was a settlements
man. And we were flying, and it was a very interesting moment. And I can
remember so well Prime Minister Sharon pointing to a hill, and he said,
``This is where I engaged as a young tank officer, my first battle, and
see how far it is to our capital and our civilization.'' In other words,
it was--his purpose was to make it clear to me the strategic issues
facing Israel. And then we flew over the West Bank, and it was a
fascinating moment.
And it was--history works in odd ways, and sometimes you're never
sure about the twists and turns that life will bring. And so I'm looking
forward to meeting with the
[[Page 2]]
Sharon family and express my admiration for a man with whom I was able
to----
Q. Two years from today he had his stroke.
The President. Yes, 2 years to this day.
Q. Today, today.
The President. Anyway, it will be an interesting moment for me, to
express my sympathies to his family. He was an interesting man, and
anyway, I'm looking forward to going to see the current leadership in
Israel as well as the Palestinians and the Arab region.
President's Upcoming Visit to Israel
Q. Could we ask--could we start asking questions?
The President. Please, yes.
Q. Your visit to Israel, what is the vision you would like to convey
to the Israeli public?
The President. The vision is, one, that I fully understand that the
world is confronting extremists--the world must confront extremists who
want to impose their ideology on peaceful people by the use of terror;
and that we're engaged in an ideological struggle that requires resolve
and vision; and that the best way to defeat the ideology of hate is with
an ideology of hope, and that is manifested in a society based upon
liberty; that the two-state solution is in Israel's long-term security
interests, and that there's hard work to be done by the leaders of the
Palestinians and the Israelis.
I will also assure Israel that there is no way that a Israeli
democracy can accept a terrorist state on her border; that there is a
way--and I'm optimistic that there are enough Palestinians committed to
a state based upon liberty--that we can achieve--that they can achieve,
with U.S. help, the vision of two states side by side in peace.
Iran
Q. Mr. President, the Israeli people are worried, first and
foremost, because of the danger that Iran will acquire nuclear weapons.
Can you, Mr. President, assure the Israelis that such a danger will
never occur under your watch?
The President. Well, I can assure the people of Israel and others in
the Middle East that an Iran with a nuclear weapon would be a danger to
world peace. I have said so very explicitly. I believe that the--and I
believe we have put in place a system that encourages pressure on the
Iranians to come up with--to either have a choice between isolation and
financial difficulty or a rational approach to what they claim is their
sovereign right, which is the ability to have nuclear power.
Now, they have been untrustworthy; they have been unwilling to be
transparent and open. And so our demands are to the Iranians, not only
with our voice, but the voice of the international community thus far,
is, you must be transparent; you must be open; and you--because of your
failure to report programs, that you cannot be trusted with the ability
to learn how to enrich. And so my message to the Israeli people is, I
fully understand the threat, that we spend a lot of time on this issue,
and that we will continue to exert maximum pressure through the
international community to peacefully resolve this issue.
Q. I'm sure you've heard the report by the American intelligence----
The President. Yes, I have. [Laughter]
Q. Unfortunately for us, we followed it too. How it affected the
chances to stop Iran from becoming a danger?
The President. Actually, if you study the report carefully, it
basically said--not basically--it said that Iran had a secret program--
--
Q. In the year 2003.
The President. Right. But my message to the American people was--is
that a nontransparent society that had a program could easily have
another program. And therefore, the intensity of the effort must not
decline, but must stay strong--and the intensity of the effort being to
prevent them from developing the know-how.
[[Page 3]]
Secondly, there are three stages to the development of a nuclear
weapon: one, materials out of which to make a weapon--that's why we've
got to stop them from enriching, and that's where our focus is; two, the
ability to take materials and to make it into a warhead or a bomb--and
we don't know their capacities at this point in time, but it's fairly
general knowledge on how to produce a weapon out of materials; and
three, rockets. Well, two of the three continue to exist. And therefore,
to say a weapons program does not exist is not the complete truth. And
so our focus is to prevent the one thing over which we believe the
international community can have influence, which is to stop the
capacity to enrich.
Thirdly, the report did say that as a result of pressures, the
Iranians suspended their military program. Well, if pressures worked in
the past, my hope is that pressures will work in the future. Part of the
reason I'm going to the Middle East is to make it abundantly clear to
nations in that part of the world that we view Iran as a threat, and
that the NIE in no way lessens that threat, but in fact, clarifies the
threat.
Middle East Peace Process/Iran
Q. If Israel comes with a smoking gun during the year 2008, are you
going to back an Israeli operation--military operation?
The President. My message to all in the region is, I believe we can
solve this diplomatically and that pressure must work. I have said, of
course, that the United States keeps all options on the table. That's
the United States policy. And that--but I believe the best solution is
going to be one that encourages Iranian isolation through international
pressures that will cause the Iranians to have to make a strategic
choice. Now, people say: ``Well, what do you mean by that? What kind of
pressures?'' Well, there are financial pressures that we have exerted
and will continue to work with others to exert.
Now, look, I readily recognize that one of the real challenges is to
convince people that peace is more important than market share, that
achieving long-term peace in the Middle East is more important than
someone's companies having a share of equipment----
Q. American or----
The President. Well, I'm saying any company. Of course, American
companies are not involved with the exportation of goods and services to
Iran. Therefore, in this case, I mean, the logic would say that extends
to not only European countries but countries from around the world. Same
with financial institutions, that we expect there to be significant
pressure placed upon Iranian financial institutions, particularly those
that are known to be involved in proliferation.
And so the strategy is more than just words; it is an action-
oriented strategy, aimed at convincing people inside of Iran that
there's a better way forward. If you look at my speeches or listen to my
speeches, you'll notice that I constantly speak to the Iranian people
and make it clear to them that the isolation that they're now suffering
and the economic deprivation that is occurring as a result of isolation
is a result of their Government's decisions. Our beef is not with the
Iranian people, our beef is with a Government that has hidden the
program.
And by the way, back to the NIE very quickly. The international
response ought to be that, okay, whether or not you agree with the NIE
or not, at least recognize that they had a program at one point in time,
and demand that Iran explain it. We shouldn't be trying to explain why
we know what we know. We ought to be focusing on the Iranians to say,
you tell us why you had a program; you tell us about the--if you want to
be an international player, it's up to you to explain.
[[Page 4]]
U.S. Foreign Policy
Q. Mr. President, I'll try to put the question another way. If the
Israeli Prime Minister will present you with a smoking gun and will tell
you, look, we can't live with such a threat, and we'll destroy the
Iranian nuclear sites, you will support Israel? You will give Israel--
you will let Israel to do so?
The President. The policy of the United States is to solve this
diplomatically.
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel/Middle East
Peace Process/President's Upcoming Visit to Israel
Q. You know, Israel is--Israeli people are confused regarding our
own Government. There is now a big discussion in Israel regarding the
blunders of the second Lebanon war. And at the same time, you are
familiar with the September 6th--whatever happens there, we don't know;
I'm sure you know. Can you tell us what is your impression of the, I
would say, of the way the Israeli Government is handling our own
military?
The President. I can only tell you about my personal relationship
with Prime Minister Olmert. That's the person with whom I have spent the
most time. I, of course, see the Foreign Minister or the Defense Minister at
meetings, but my time is spent with Prime Minister Olmert. I trust him,
I like him, and I think he's a man of strength.
Prime Minister Olmert, first of all, one thing I look for is, I look
for vision. Can somebody see a hopeful future? A lot of times in the--
this complicated world in which we live, we stay so focused on the
moment that it's hard to see a vision that reaches beyond the immediate.
And so when I talk to Prime Minister Olmert, I listen very carefully
about his vision for the future because what we're talking about at
Annapolis is vision, is giving people something to be for, something to
hope for.
The whole purpose of our discussions at Annapolis has been to
advance what a state would look like. The state is subject to the
roadmap, the obligations of both sides before the state can come into
being; it's subject to the roadmap. But there's got to be a vision
because a vision is inspirational, a vision is hopeful. There's got to
be something that the Palestinians can say, if--``Here's what we're for.
Therefore, let us renounce our desire to destroy Israel; let us
recognize that it must exist as a neighbor. So support us.'' I believe
there's enough people in the Palestinian Territories who are sick of the
failures of the past, sick of broken promise. And yet they have yet to
have something specifically defined around which they can rally. That's
the purpose.
And so when I talk to Prime Minister Olmert, I listen very carefully
to whether or not he's able to think beyond the moment. And I've come to
the conclusion that, yes, he is a man of vision. He understands the
significance of defining a hopeful state. And it's hopeful not just for
the Palestinians, but it's hopeful for Israel as well. After all, he ran
on a platform that said--now, this is a major shift in Israeli policy;
it started with Ariel Sharon, as you know--
which is two states, based upon the premise that liberty will bring
peace. Now, of course, his concern is that the imposition of a state
before certain conditions have been met--that's why I say, ``subject to
the roadmap.'' And the United States, as I said early, recognizes that
there cannot be a state that harbors the desire to destroy its neighbor.
No government can accept that, and I understand that.
And so I trust Olmert. His----
Q. Do you?
The President. I do trust him.
Q. You trust Olmert, period?
The President. I trust him. I hope--hopefully, he'll say the same
about me. Hopefully--you see, one of the things in politics that happens
often is, people sometimes won't tell you really what's on their mind.
It happens here in America. For example, you'll have politicians walk in
the
[[Page 5]]
Oval Office and say, ``Hey, President, I'm with you.'' And then all of a
sudden, the heat gets on--[laughter]--and it turns out, they're not with
you.
Q. You feel it at your back.
The President. Yes. Well, I feel--and I've had enough conversations,
heart-to-heart conversations with the Prime Minister. I understand
Israeli politics is very complicated. It's tough. It is full-contact
karate. [Laughter] And----
Q. Not unlike American----
The President. Not really. Not really. Because the President is--
even though we've got our politics and even though I've got tough
relations at times with Congress, the President sets foreign policy. He
is constantly worried about a coalition. And I understand that. I
understand the difficulty he faces. But in spite of those difficulties,
I'm interested in strategic visions based upon peace. And I firmly
believe he has that vision. And obviously, he's going to have to work
his way through the Israeli politics, and he's going to have to be
mindful of what's happening elsewhere.
And the United States, by the way, can help both parties. That's why
I'm going, to help boost the confidence of both parties to reach out for
a vision. And by the way, the trip is more than just going to Israel and
the Palestinian Territories. I'm also going to the Arab world for two
reasons. One is to convince the Arab nations that Israel is a partner--
should be a partner in peace; that this vision is in the interests not
only of Israel and Palestinians, but it's in the interests of the Arab
world.
Q. You expect to achieve something tangible?
The President. Well, we achieved something very tangible. Look, you
got to understand that in a matter as complicated as this issue, that it
requires a lot of diligence and a lot of time and a lot of effort. There
was a major breakthrough at Annapolis when the Israeli Prime Minister
and the Palestinian President
addressed a roomful of diplomats, high-ranking officials from the Middle
East, as well as the rest of the world. And so now we must follow up on
that success. In other words, they were in the room listening very
carefully to the visions of both nations. And the American President can
help move the process forward by reminding friends and allies in the
Middle East about the importance of the two-state solution and what they
can do to help.
And the third thing, of course, is to spend time talking about the
strategic implications of a U.S. presence in a way that bolsters
governments and, at the same time, helps serve as a bulwark against
aggressive regimes such as Iran. And so it's a multifaceted agenda that
I'm really looking forward to carrying on there in the Middle East.
Middle East Peace Process
Q. But still, Mr. President, do you see a chance to sign a
comprehensive peace agreement between Israel and the----
The President. Yes, I do, before I leave.
Q. Before you leave?
The President. Yes, I do. I do. I'm an optimistic guy.
Q. ----by initials or by full execution?
The President. Well, first of all--no. First of all, the--I envision
Israel and Palestine sitting down at a table, signing--this is what a
state would look like, subject to the roadmap. There's work to be done.
Q. And concluding an agreement?
The President. On what the state would look like, absolutely. Yes, I
do. I think it can happen. And I believe both parties want it to happen.
Now, they got work to do, and one of the reasons I'm going is to remind
them of the work they got to do. See, people say to me, ``All you got to
do is go over there and say--impose the solution.'' No, we want the
solution to last. This has got to be negotiated in good faith, and it's
hard work. Both leaders have got constituencies they've got to deal
with, skeptical publics. And I believe the U.S.
[[Page 6]]
President can help keep the process moving, and that's what my trip is
all about.
Israeli Settlements/Middle East Peace Process
Q. Unauthorized settlement, it is something which--an issue which is
between the United States and Israel for a long time.
The President. Yes, we expect them to honor their commitments. The
Israeli Government has said that they're going to get rid of
unauthorized settlements, and that's what we expect. That's what we've
been told.
Q. Not before you come, you know.
The President. Well, that will be on the--that will, of course, be
an agenda item. But Prime Minister--both Prime
Ministers with whom I have worked understand our
position. Both have agreed, by the way, of unauthorized settlements.
Q. They agree?
The President. Both understand, as well, that I said conditions on
the ground, the realities of the situation will help determine what a--
the borders look like. And so I have made some--at least from what the
U.S. perspective looks like--some statements that will help move the
process forward. But the unauthorized settlements, which is different
from authorized settlements, is an issue we've been very clear on. But
I've also made statements on the settlements as well.
As I said, realities on the ground will help define the border--the
eventual border of what the Palestinian state will look like. And the
state will come into being subject to the conditions set out in the
roadmap, which means we've got a lot of work to do. One of the things
I'll be doing is visiting with Tony Blair there
in order to make--to catch up on what he is doing to help the
Palestinians. Look, developing a state out of--is difficult. There's got
to be institutions that provide stability, and it's hard to do.
That's what happening in Iraq. It's hard to go from dictatorship,
like they had in Iraq, to one in which there is solid institutions that
will enable a democracy to survive. I have come to the conclusion that
it's absolutely necessary work for the sake of peace because if we're in
an ideological struggle, the only way to defeat the ideology that preys
upon fear and hate is through the development of societies that respond
to the will of the people. And democracies--it turns out, democracies
throughout our history tend not to fight each other because democracies
respond to the will of the people, and most people do not want war and
bloodshed and violence. Most people just want to live a normal, peaceful
life.
I tell the American people all the time that Iraqi mothers want the
same thing for their children that American mothers want for theirs, a
place for their child to grow up and get a good education and be able to
realize dreams. Same thing for the Palestinian mothers and the Israeli
mothers. There's a commonality there, and yet, unfortunately, in the
world in which we live today, there are people who simply do not like
the idea of societies based upon the will of the people and will use
violence to stop the advance of freedom. And it's not just in the
Palestinian Territories that you find the violence, you find it in
Lebanon, you find it in Iraq, you find it in Afghanistan, you find it in
Pakistan.
Q. You find it in Gaza.
The President. Yes. You find people who will kill innocent life to
stop the advance of freedom, which should call the world to--should
cause the world to rally. If killers want to stop liberty, it should be
a clear signal to all of us that we must do everything we can to advance
liberty. And one of the things I find very hopeful about a Palestinian
state is that many in the world want to help the Palestinians develop
institutions and stability. And I--President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayyad
are committed to the development of a state. They need a lot of help.
And one of the things we can provide help for--besides some
[[Page 7]]
practical help on organizing their security forces and obviously to
encourage investment--is to--there's got to be a vision, see. People
have got to be for something. And that's where we're trying to take the
process over the next year.
Iraq/U.S. Foreign Policy/President's Decisionmaking
Q. Mr. President, you just mentioned Iraq. Can you clarify to us
whether there was any Israeli involvement in your decision to invade
Iraq?
The President. No, not at all, none whatsoever. My decision was
based upon U.S. intelligence, based upon the desire to provide security
for our peoples and others. It was based upon my willingness to work
with the international community on this issue. Remember, if you look
back at the history, there was a unanimous vote in the Security Council:
disclose, disarm, or face serious consequences. And when he defied, when
he refused to allow the inspectors in, when he made a statement by his
actions that he didn't really care what the international community
said, that I decided to make sure words meant something.
And so I acted based upon our own security interests. And--but it
also fit into this notion of--and remember, Zarqawi--there was some
terrorist connections, not with the 9/11 attacks, but terrorist
connections. Abu Nidal, he had been using--he'd been funding families of
suicide bombers. In other words, as far as we were concerned, he had
weapons of mass destruction, which could have been used in a deadly way.
It turns out, he didn't have the weapons, but he had the know-how on how
to make weapons, which could easily have been reconstituted. The
sanctions regime turns out to have been corrupt and wasn't working. In
other words, there's a variety of aspects to my decision, all of which
were aimed at making sure that U.S. security, first and foremost, was
enhanced.
National Security Council Press Secretary Gordon Johndroe. One last question.
2008 Presidential Election
Q. You follow the primaries now, in America.
The President. Yes. [Laughter]
Q. We wonder if there is a moment when you tell yourself, wow, why
can't I join the fray?
The President. That's interesting.
Q. I can do it better. [Laughter]
The President. No, no, I appreciate that question. It's a very
interesting question. I believe strongly that democracies are enhanced
by change--by the peaceful change of government. And as much as I'll
miss being President--and there will be a lot of aspects I'll miss about
it--it is in our Nation's interests that there be a healthy debate and
that the process move on. And so I'm realistic about what's going to
happen this year.
You know, I loved campaigning. We were reminiscing at the ranch this
weekend--Laura and I and some friends were--about
how exciting Presidential campaigns can be. And I also understand how
grueling they can be. This is a time of high anxiety for campaigns and
candidates as they come in the final day of the Iowa caucuses. I can
remember distinctly what it felt like campaigning in these States----
Q. In the snow.
The President. ----in the snow--on the last day. And so there's a
lot of excitement to it. But I'm very comfortable about this year. We've
got a lot to do. We've got a lot to do domestically and a lot to do
internationally. I fully understand there's going to be a lot of focus
on the Presidential primaries and the Presidential general election,
which is good. There ought to be a healthy debate. In the meantime,
however, I am not going to allow domestic politics to get in the way of
implementing a vision, of doing--laying that foundation for peace, one
of the things history will look back on.
[[Page 8]]
President's Legacy
Q. When you are talking about vision, Mr. President--and this will
be our last question--how do you wish to be remembered in world history?
The President. Well, first of all, I'll be dead before the true
history of the Bush administration is written. Here in the Oval Office,
there are portraits of two Presidents, George Washington and Abraham
Lincoln. In the past couple of years, I have read extensive analyses of
both of those men's Presidencies. My attitude is that it's going to take
a while for objective historians to realize the contributions that this
administration has made to peace.
Q. Like Harry Truman's legacy, which developed.
The President. Well, each President has his own set of circumstances
with which to deal. I would hope that people, when they look back at
this administration, would say that President Bush and his
administration worked diligently to protect the American people from
harm; that he recognized the threats of the 21st century; that he acted
in a--when he needed to be tough, he acted strong, and when he needed to
have vision, he understood the power of freedom to be transformative.
Our foreign policy is more than just confronting terrorists. Our
foreign policy is to confront the conditions that enable these
ideologues to recruit, such as HIV/AIDS on the continent of Africa or
feeding the hungry or dealing with malaria. Our foreign policy is based
upon our great trust in the capacity of the common person to dictate a
peaceful course for government. But just so you know, I fully understand
I'll be long gone before the accurate history of this administration is
reflected in the history books.
Q. In our country, you won't have to wait so long.
The President. Well, I don't worry about it, sir. I just really
don't. It's such an honor to be the President. You betray the office if
you get so caught up in your own personal--your personal standing. I
remind people that the President should--must understand, like in the
Middle East, that the conditions must be ripe for people to go for peace
and that you cannot force peace based upon a President's calendar. You
can use the calendar by saying to the parties, you know this guy, you
know his vision; now is the time for you to come to conclusion. But a
President must never try to force others to accept something that they
themselves don't want to accept because there will be--it won't last.
Now, we can work hard, and I believe the time is ripe; that's what
I'm trying to say to you. We've got leaders who have made commitments to
a vision. They have both told me and told each other, we are committed.
And these men know me. And so I believe--to answer your question--yes,
there will be a comprehensive peace signed by the end of this year,
because if they're committed, like they say they are--and I believe they
are, and I believe their people, the majority of the people want there
to be peace--now is the time to move.
Anyway.
Mr. Johndroe. Thanks, guys.
Note: The interview was taped at 9:55 a.m. in the Oval Office at the
White House. In his remarks, the President referred to Deputy Prime
Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs Tzipora ``Tzipi'' Livni and
Minister of Defense Ehud Barak of Israel; President Mahmoud Abbas and
Prime Minister Salam Fayyad of the Palestinian Authority; and former
Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom, Quartet Representative
in the Middle East. The transcript was released by the Office of the
Press Secretary on January 4. A tape was not available for verification
of the content of this interview.
[[Page 9]]