[Weekly Compilation of Presidential Documents Volume 44, Number 49 (Monday, December 15, 2008)]
[Pages 1495-1501]
[Online from the Government Publishing Office, www.gpo.gov]
<R04>
Interview With Nadia Bilbassy Charters of MBC TV
December 5, 2008
The Oval Office
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Mr. President, nice to see you always.
The President. Welcome, welcome.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir.
The President. We are glad you're here.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you very much.
The President. Come on in to the Oval Office.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. We are grateful for this. Thank you. This is
great.
The President. It's an interesting history here, and I kind of think
one thing that your viewers might be interested in knowing is that the
first decision I ever made as President--but I was actually President-
elect--was, what color rug do you want? And one of the important things
is to surround yourself with people who you can trust, and delegate. In
this case, I delegated the rug design to Laura, my wife.
But I told her, I said, I want the rug to have a message, and that
is ``optimistic guy goes to work here.'' And so, as you can see, the rug
really lights up the room. And I am optimistic about the future of the
Middle East.
Freedom Agenda/Middle East
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Well, that's a great note, sir. You've been
here 8 years. A few weeks and you're going to be leaving.
The President. I'm going home.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. You sat on this desk for 8 years, and you
took many decisions regarding our region. You launched the greater
Middle East initiative that you want to democratize, reform the Middle
East. In retrospect, do you think that vision was realized? Would you do
anything differently?
The President. Well, I think it began--it's the beginning of a very
difficult vision to implement. But I felt it was necessary for a couple
of important reasons. One, I believe we're in an ideological struggle
against people who want to achieve their ideological vision through the
use of violence and murder. And I believe it is essential that you have
an alternative available for people; the one I happen to believe in is
based upon liberty. I don't think this is an American vision, see. And I
tell people this, that I do believe there is a universal God, and a gift
of that Almighty to all of us, whether we be Methodists or Muslims or
nothing, is freedom. And so freedom is a great alternative.
But I also believe there's a moral calling. If you believe there's
an Almighty God, and a gift of that Almighty to everybody is freedom,
then I think you have to--if you can do something about it, that you
have to act on that, so that moms can grow up in a society that is
hopeful for their children, you know, that their children are--can
realize dreams.
And to me the best type of society to do that is freedom. But it's
very hard; it's difficult. And so you have to plant a seed, and you have
to cultivate the seed, and eventually the crops will bloom. And we're
beginning to see the crops beginning to bloom in parts of the Middle
East.
War on Terror
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Sir, some people say that the war on terror
is a war on Islam.
The President. Yes.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Yet you went to the first mosque after 9/11,
and you spoke there. How do you convince people in the Middle East that
George Bush is not fighting a war against Islam?
The President. No, I know, and it troubles my soul, because I
believe we're all God's children. And I hear people say, ``George Bush
doesn't like Muslims; he wants to fight Muslims.'' And, first, I thank
you for giving me the chance to, hopefully, set the record straight. But
I am objecting to anybody who murders innocent people to achieve their
objectives. I don't think people who murder in the name of religion are
truly religious people. And secondly, I would hope that people would
know that when we try to use some of our influence to help on education
programs, for example, or we welcome students, Saudi students, to the
United States to study here, that it's a sign of respect and a sign of
my desire to reach out to all people regardless of their religion.
[[Page 1496]]
Reflections on the President's Time in Office
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Absolutely. I wanted also to ask you about,
in the last 8 years, if you look back, would you do things differently?
Would you have done things that you probably thought for a second--for
the second time, I would have done them a different way?
The President. I'm sure there will be. I mean, there's been some
disappointments.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Like what?
The President. Well, like, Abu Ghraib was a terrible disappointment.
And admittedly, I wasn't there on the site, but I was the Commander in
Chief of a military where these disgraceful acts took place that sent
the absolute wrong image about America and our military.
You know, parts of Iraq--it's taken longer than I thought it would.
On the other hand, I am pleased to see a multiethnic society begin to
emerge. I talked to the leaders of Iraq yesterday and today and
congratulated them on doing some hard work. And I love to hear their
spirit in their voice.
And so I'm confident history will say, ``Oh, Bush could have done it
better here,'' or, ``Bush could have done it better there.'' But I think
from the strategic point of view, I'm confident that the idea of moving
liberty in the region, a two-state solution to help the Israeli-
Palestinian issue, the liberation of Iraq, and the followup with the--to
help the Iraqis realize their sovereignty--a strong push-back against
Iran--I believe when people objectively analyze this administration,
they'll say, ``Well, I see now what he was trying to do.''
Middle East Peace Process
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. I mean, the Arab peace initiative, it was a
framework. Do you think that President-elect Obama should use it in
terms of achieving peace in the Middle East?
The President. I definitely think it was a major breakthrough for
then Crown Prince, now His Majesty, King Abdallah, to take the
initiative and lay out the conditions for peace. And it is, I think, a
useful foundation to help solve a longstanding problem. I do believe
there will be a Palestinian state. I feel comfortable in saying that the
decision--my decision to promote a Palestinian state, being the first
President to do so, was the right thing for peace--right thing for peace
for the Palestinians, right thing for peace for the Israelis. And His
Majesty was very useful and very bold in laying out the Arab peace
initiative.
The Rose Garden
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. We're going to talk about all this in details
so----
The President. Yes, come on, I'll show you the Rose Garden.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. ----let's walk and talk as we go down to the
Map Room.
The President. You've seen the Rose Garden before.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. I have, many times.
The President. Many times. [Laughter]
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you, sir. It's beautiful.
The President. It is a beautiful day.
The Presidency
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. What are you going to miss most about this
place?
The President. Well, you know, I'll miss a lot. I am--I've got such
respect for our military, and I admire people in our military so very
much. I'll miss being the Commander in Chief. But, you know, the White
House is full of incredibly gracious and kind people who work hard to
make family life as normal as possible. And so I'll miss a lot of the
people we work with here.
Post-Presidency Plans
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And what's your plans?
The President. Well, I'm going to move back to Texas.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And what are you going to do there?
The President. And I'm going to, you know, write a book, I think,
about what it was like to be President and some of the hard decisions I
had to make. I'm going to start a institute that will promote freedom.
And this will be an interesting place, particularly in regards to the
Middle East, because this will be a place where there will be a forum
[[Page 1497]]
for people with different issues to come and discuss.
You know, I would love to have, you know, Palestinians, such as the
President or the Prime Minister, to come and describe to the Americans
what it was like to be in that part of the world. Or you know, there's
just a lot of really interesting opportunities for people to come and
lecture and think and talk.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And in your book, obviously, we're talking
about foreign policy. Most of it happened in the Middle East--okay,
we're off camera now. I hope the guy is okay.
The President. A lot of--yes. He fell into the Rose Garden.
[At this point, there was a change in location, and the interview
resumed as follows.]
Middle East Peace Process/West Bank
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Mr. President, thank you very much for this
exclusive interview with us----
The President. Thank you.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. ----and thank you very much for granting us,
to MEBC, and to me, personally, on behalf of Arab media. I really do
appreciate it; I'm very grateful.
The President. Thank you. I've enjoyed working with you. You've been
a very fair journalist, and it's been a pleasure to have known you.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you, sir. You are the first American
President to call for the establishment of a Palestinian state. You had
hoped that you would have this state realized when you leave office. Do
you think that you could have done more? Do you think that you have
thrown all of the weight of the U.S. behind this vision?
The President. Absolutely, we threw all the muscle and all the
weight of the United States behind the vision. I am--you know, I wish
there would have been a clearly defined state by the time I left office.
However, I do take comfort in a couple of things.
One, the attitude toward a Palestinian state has shifted. I think
there's universal recognition in the region that in order for there to
be peace, there must be two states living side by side in peace.
Secondly, I am pleased that Prime Minister Olmert and President Abbas,
after Annapolis, have worked very hard to narrow the differences on a
variety of issues. And they have; they've made substantial progress.
Thirdly, I am pleased that there is the Arab peace plan, which is an
essential part of creating the conditions for a Palestinian state to
evolve. Fourthly, I'm grateful that at the Annapolis conference all Arab
nations were represented, which is an important signal, because I
learned a lesson in studying previous efforts for peace that there must
be regional buy-in. In other words, the nations in the region must stand
with the Palestinians, in particular, and say this is--we support you.
And so--and fifthly, by the way, I am pleased with the progress
being made to help the development of an infrastructure in the West
Bank. Prime Minister Fayyad has asked for help. A lot of nations are
helping, including the United States; we're helping with security
measures. Generals Dayton and Jones have been very helpful. My friend
Prime Minister Blair--former Prime Minister Blair, who was here the
other night for dinner--and I talked about the economics that are
beginning to take place in the region. In other words, a state can be
defined on paper, but it also has to be defined in a civil society and a
strong economy. And it's beginning to happen.
Middle East Peace Process/Gaza Strip
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. How do you see the Palestinian issue evolving
in the next few years? I mean, Prime Minister Tony Blair said, actually,
there's no peace without Gaza, and I guess that means Hamas as well. Do
you share that vision?
The President. I share the vision that the only way there's going to
be peace is where those who assume that violence is necessary to achieve
peace cannot be a part of the process. In other words, people have to
renounce violence in order to have peace. It's contradictory to say, I
am going to use violence to achieve my objectives, and oh, by the way,
I'm for peace.
And so, ultimately, Gaza has got to be--look, Gaza has to be a part
of a Palestinian state, and the Palestinian state has to be contiguous
territory; it cannot look like Swiss
[[Page 1498]]
cheese. And it's got to be a state in which the sovereignty of the
Palestinian people is--reigns supreme.
Middle East Peace Process/Palestinian State
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. So you're confident it's going to emerge?
The President. I am. I really am. There will be fits and starts. I
mean, if this were a straight line between vision and reality, it would
have happened. But there's a lot of complicating factors. Obviously, the
terrorists create complicating factors. Secondly, politics creates
complicating factors, both within the Palestinians, as well as the
Israelis, as we have seen.
But nevertheless, the foundation is there. People--if you give
people a choice, ultimately give them a choice between two states side
by side in peace or this unresolved dispute, what would they choose?
They would choose peace. And this will happen.
Middle East Peace Process
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. What will President-elect Obama pick up from
where you left?
The President. Well, I think we've left it in good shape. We've left
it with the vision intact. In other words, a lot of people now share the
vision of two states. As I say, there's been progress between the
Israeli Prime Minister and the Palestinian President toward what a state
should look like. I think the Israelis are getting--be more comfortable
with the notion that a state won't create less security for them, but
more security for them. And the Arab world, because of the Arab
initiative as well as the Annapolis conference, are showing more and
more willingness to be constructive partners in getting peace.
Saudi Arabia-U.S. Relations
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. The U.S. and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia have
a close strategic relationship. You, personally, have a very good
working relationship with King Abdallah. Yet you don't see eye to eye on
many issues. How did you resolve that?
The President. I think we do. I think we got--I think we agree more
than we disagree. First of all, I hold His Majesty in high respect. I
appreciate, for example, the religious dialog that he instigated, and I
was honored to be invited to go to New York. I thought that was a very
smart way to help promote understanding, and understanding eventually
leads to peace.
He is a man who understands that terrorists can destroy his own
society. And so I--I don't know if the world understands this or not,
but Saudi Arabia has been very firm in dealing with Al Qaida. And
remember, it was Al Qaida that tried to blow up their oil
infrastructure; they killed their citizens. And His Majesty knows full
well that that kind of terrorism cannot coexist with a peaceful society.
When I have my discussions with him, I find there's a lot more common
ground than not.
Saudi Arabia/Middle East Peace Process
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. So there's no disagreement with the
Palestinian issue with what----
The President. I think His Majesty--look, the Arab peace initiative
actually talks about, you know, Israel solving its problems with Lebanon
and Syria and the Palestinians, and there will be universal recognition
when that happens. And so to me that is a very positive statement. And
that the idea of a Palestinian state as part--as far as being part of
the solution to the overall problem is something I believe he agrees
with. I don't want to put words in his mouth, because he's my dear
friend.
Qatar
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. In the recent years, there was an emergence
of Qatar as a regional player in many of the countries in the Middle
East. Do you see that played on the--kind of at the expense of
traditional allies of the U.S., like Saudi Arabia and Egypt?
The President. I think it's going to be very important for the
initiatives instigated by Qatar to show results, for example, with
Hamas. Now, Hamas--in my judgment, the violent wing of Hamas damages the
prospects for a Palestinian state. Or with Hizballah--I believe that
Hizballah is a very
[[Page 1499]]
destabilizing influence, particularly when they resort to violence.
So what I would look for, and do look for, and would hope the next
President would look for is, okay, are these initiatives bearing fruit?
We, of course, appreciate, you know, our basing agreement with Qatar,
and we thank them very much for that. And we would hope that they would
follow through to deliver the results for peace, which is what we all
want, I hope.
Iraq
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. We're going to move to Iraq. Recently, the
U.S. and the Iraqi Government have signed the status of forces
agreement. What do you think of it?
The President. I think that the strategic framework agreement and
the status of forces agreement is a sign that the Iraqi democracy is
emerging and is healthy. There was a lot of debate on the SFA and SOFA,
and there were people that were--you know, a lot of people were saying,
well, this will be bad for Iraq, and others say this will be good for
Iraq. And after the debate was over, it was ratified by the people's
assembly, and I think that's a healthy sign. I also think it's very good
to have an agreement in place that recognizes the sovereignty of Iraq
and recognizes that the United States will be moving its forces out of
cities and then eventually out of the country based upon success.
War on Terror
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. In retrospect, would you think that this war
could be averted?
The President. We tried to avert it. I know people say, ``Oh, George
Bush likes to use the military.'' That's the hardest thing for a
President to do, is to put soldiers in harm's way, because I knew what
would happen. And, you know, that's of course manifested when I meet
with mothers of fallen soldiers or wives or husbands. And it is
incredibly sad, as I'm sure you can imagine, very emotional, to hug and
to cry with families. And I've met with a lot of families--a lot--so I
knew the consequences. I really did.
And I was hoping that through diplomatic pressure that we would be
able to resolve this issue peacefully. And I remember--you can't take
this Iraq out of the post-9/11 context. We'd been attacked, and here's a
man who I have said repeatedly, you know, was not directly involved in
9/11, but had used weapons of mass destruction and had supported terror
and had paid the families of suicide bombers and was a sworn enemy of
the United States and had invaded two countries and had ignored, you
know, 17 or however many resolutions in the United Nations. He was a
threat.
But I did go to the United Nations, as you remember. Disclose,
disarm, or face serious consequences, is what 1441 said. And I firmly
believe the choice was Saddam Hussein's to make, and he made a fateful
choice. Then the interesting point was, after he was removed, with a
broad coalition of countries, what do we do? You know, do we pick a
strong man and say, here's America's guy and put him in there? Or do we
work so that the Iraqi citizens would be able to pick their own form of
government and their own people? And that's what we chose to do, and
it's been really hard.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Was it worth it?
The President. Absolutely. I believe a Middle East with Saddam
Hussein in power today would be different, much different than the one
today. I think you'd see a man with a lot of oil wealth willing to use
terrorist connections to try to compete, for example, with Hizballah.
There could conceivably be a nuclear arms race taking place, while
even though Saddam Hussein did not have nuclear weapons, it is certain,
at least to the experts, that he still had the capacity to make nuclear
weapons. And there would be nothing more destabilizing for the Middle
East than to see Iran trying to develop a nuclear weapon and Iraq trying
to develop a nuclear weapon.
So I think the Middle East is a much better place without Saddam
Hussein in power, and the sacrifices by both the Iraqi people and the
coalition forces to achieve where we are today.
Iran
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. But some say, sir, that the removal of Saddam
Hussein has bolstered Iran and make emergent as a regional superpower.
[[Page 1500]]
The President. I disagree completely with that. I think the
emergence of a democratic and stable Iraq on Iran's border is in the--
will help more likely keep the peace vis-a-vis Iran in the Middle East.
Secondly, what has changed with Iran is universal recognition about
the dangers of Iran having a--the capacity to make a nuclear weapon. And
therefore, one of the objectives of my administration is to create an
international coalition all saying the same thing, which is, you have
defied the IAEA, therefore, you cannot be trusted to say that you're
only enriching for civilian nuclear power; therefore, stop your process,
verify they stopped their enrichment process; otherwise, there will
continue to be international sanctions.
Iran-U.S. Relations
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. The Iranian--recently your administration has
been involved diplomatically with the Iranians. Do you think that
actually you can bring them to the international fold by engaging them
diplomatically?
The President. We're trying to--we've offered them a way forward;
it's verifiably suspend your enrichment. And we will be at the table
with other nations.
And so, well, we discussed Iraq with Iran in a regional context. But
we have said there is--if you want to have diplomatic relations and
discussions with the United States, verifiably suspend your enrichment
program. Our objective is to stop their gain of knowledge that would
enable them to build a nuclear weapon, because having a nuclear weapon
would be incredibly destabilizing to the region.
And so there is a way forward for them to have diplomacy. But it's
their choice, and thus far, they have not chosen to do it. And I regret
that our relations are with Iran--are this way, because I have great
respect for the Iranian people and the Iranian history. And I know that
they can have a better future with the rest of the world, if their
leadership were to abandon its desire to learn how to build a nuclear
weapon.
Syria
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. I have a few questions about just Syria and
Lebanon, but my time is over.
The President. Well, thank you for your--you're a beautiful
interviewer.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you, sir. So can I go ahead?
The President. Quickly. And then I really do have to go.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Sure, absolutely. I wanted to talk about
Syria. Basically, the U.S. attacked Syria. But do you see----
The President. The U.S.----
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. ----attacked Syria recently. There was a
target inside Syria that was attacked by----
The President. Allegedly, yes.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Allegedly. But do you see this kind of
tension will succeed soon, or do you see the U.S. diplomatically engaged
in Syria?
The President. First of all, we discussed no operations. Secondly,
we have engaged Syria early in my administration with Secretary Colin
Powell and others. And our message was, if you'd like to have better
relations with us, stop housing Hamas, violent Hamas; stop destabilizing
the democracy of Lebanon; stop facilitating the flow of terrorists into
Iraq; be a constructive neighbor to countries, and we can have better
relations. And they have, thus far, chosen to do that. Again, there is a
way forward.
But my worry about just sitting down with people and hoping that
they end up behaving differently is that oftentimes it reinforces
behavior that is not in our interests. And so I believe in conditional
diplomacy. Now, there is a lot of multilateral diplomacy going on out of
this administration. But in this case, just like Iran, we will have
diplomatic relations if you choose, but there's got to be behavioral
change in order to justify it.
Lebanon
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. And can you stabilize Lebanon?
The President. I've been trying to--one of the great successes has
been to get 30,000 or so Syrian troops out of Lebanon. I think one of
the real keys to peace in the Middle
[[Page 1501]]
East is Lebanon. And Lebanon is a democracy. I've met their President
recently here in the Oval Office, which--had a very a good discussion.
I've been very impressed by Prime Minister Siniora's courage and
boldness. We want to help Lebanon have an armed forces that are
effective, so that they can protect their people. And we have been
working very hard for 7 years to free Lebanon as much as possible from
foreign interference, so that its democracy can grow and mature and be a
stable contributor to the region.
President's Legacy in the Middle East
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. How would you like the people in the Middle
East to remember you?
The President. I would hope they would remember me as George W.
Bush, as a man who respects their religion, respects human rights and
human dignity, and prays for peace.
Ms. Bilbassy Charters. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time.
Thank you.
Note: The interview began taping at 1 p.m. in the Oval Office and
continued on the Colonnade and in the Map Room at the White House, for
later broadcast. In his remarks, the President referred to King Abdallah
bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud of Saudi Arabia; President Mahmoud Abbas (Abu
Mazen) and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad of the Palestinian Authority;
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel; Lt. Gen. Keith W. Dayton, USA,
U.S. Security Coordinator for Israel and the Palestinian Authority; Gen.
James L. Jones, USMC (Ret.), Special Envoy for Middle East Security;
former Prime Minister Tony Blair of the United Kingdom, Quartet
Representative in the Middle East; former Secretary of State Colin L.
Powell; and President Michel Sleiman and Prime Minister Fuad Siniora of
Lebanon. The transcript was released by the Office of the Press
Secretary on December 7. A portion of this interview could not be
verified because the tape was incomplete.